TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 - #2

[Via Marple]

"Arnold is going on a 'hunch' that vehicles found submerged in Benbrook Lake may have clues to the 1974 disappearance of his sister and the two other Fort Worth girls."

A hunch! Okay then.

I 'liked' this post, because I don't really understand how his mind works, from what little I can see since checking out this case this year.

But if he said 'hunch' to avoid going into details with the media now, that's ok for me.

What's important is to get the job done now. Get it over and done with, and safely.

 

[TGwebs]

I 'liked' this post, because I don't really understand how his mind works, from what little I can see since checking out this case this year.

But if he said 'hunch' to avoid going into details with the media now, that's ok for me.

What's important is to get the job done now. Get it over and done with, and safely.

He said hunch because that's what it is. Maybe people are objecting because he used the word "hunch" instead of the word "theory" but either way there's no actual evidence that points to the girls being in the lake, it's all speculation. That's why LE isn't helping and they had to raise the funds on their own.
Now, that being said, that doesn't mean the hunch/theory/speculation isn't correct. I know the majority of the people on this forum think it is and I'm in the minority. I respect everybody's opinion and I'm supportive of the dive and happy the families will get an answer to this question.

 

[Mysteries1974]

I’m hoping the dive brings resolution to the cases.

 

[Bluebyrd78]

B

A 40' dive is nothing. One car is at 60'. Also no big deal. What is so dangerous? They plan to touch them. If only 2 divers are down there, attaching bladders to the frame, out-fitted with oxygen tanks, hydro-hoist. That will create a cloud of silt, rendering the diver blind. Visibility will go from 8" to ZERO INCHES. It isn't black at that depth. It's dark or darker green. It will take hours to restore it to 8". So you have to get out of the water and wait. There is no glass in any of those cars - gone. Bring Em Up. There will be no physical evidence of anything. If this operation is supported by LE, why wasn't the dive team given the GPS numbers? Why did this new diver have to locate them with infra-red cameras? Everyone in LE (3-5 jurisdictions) has the GPS locations. Equusearch does. The diver that mapped them does. I understand team "Operation Bring Em Up" are doing "practice dives" blindfolded. I don't understand why. Do a night dive. Turn off the sun. Bring under-water lights - a timing-light. Take a photo essay of each car - 100 frames of each car - enough to establish make/model/year. Pray for a VIN#. That is a full day PER CAR. Compare them to the records that will identify the owner...No! wait, they won't have any records. I guess they can put the facts on the news and turn the public loose. OR figure out what, if any, vehicle is of interest to our case before you go down there, and leave the other two alone - for those families to make their own decisions. That's the problem I have with the approach of "Operation Bring Em Up."

 

[Bluebyrd78]

A 40' dive is nothing. One car is at 60'. Also no big deal. What is so dangerous? They plan to touch them. If only 2 divers are down there, attaching bladders to the frame, out-fitted with oxygen tanks, hydro-hoist. That will create a cloud of silt, rendering the diver blind. Visibility will go from 8" to ZERO INCHES. It isn't black at that depth. It's dark or darker green. It will take hours to restore it to 8". So you have to get out of the water and wait. There is no glass in any of those cars - gone. Bring Em Up. There will be no physical evidence of anything. If this operation is supported by LE, why wasn't the dive team given the GPS numbers? Why did this new diver have to locate them with infra-red cameras? Everyone in LE (3-5 jurisdictions) has the GPS locations. Equusearch does. The diver that mapped them does. I understand team "Operation Bring Em Up" are doing "practice dives" blindfolded. I don't understand why. Do a night dive. Turn off the sun. Bring under-water lights - a timing-light. Take a photo essay of each car - 100 frames of each car - enough to establish make/model/year. Pray for a VIN#. That is a full day PER CAR. Compare them to the records that will identify the owner...No! wait, they won't have any records. I guess they can put the facts on the news and turn the public loose. OR figure out what, if any, vehicle is of interest to our case before you go down there, and leave the other two alone - for those families to make their own decisions. That's the problem I have with the approach of "Operation Bring Em Up."

Because those families may never have the means of

I have a whole new appreciation for how vulnerable you are if someone is unhappy. I am no longer anonymous to over 3,000 ppl that never heard of WS; including hundreds of FB friends, ppl I went to high school with, my family, and of course, a certain suspect who will no doubt remember me.

Correct me if I'm incorrect. The only suspect that there is in your opinion is TT. You say that said suspect would definitely remember you, however you did not run in the same circles? Why would you be so memorable to them?

 

[TGwebs]

Because those families may never have the means of

Correct me if I'm incorrect. The only suspect that there is in your opinion is TT. You say that said suspect would definitely remember you, however you did not run in the same circles? Why would you be so memorable to them?

FW_Cat grew up in the FW community and I believe went to the same high school as Rachel (correct me if I'm wrong about that). She's been very transparent in her posts if you go back and read them. Her posts are worth reading regardless. She and I don't always agree (and why should we?), but she cares deeply about the case and has spent more time researching than just about anyone.

 

[Bluebyrd78]

FW_Cat grew up in the FW community and I believe went to the same high school as Rachel (correct me if I'm wrong about that). She's been very transparent in her posts if you go back and read them. Her posts are worth reading regardless. She and I don't always agree (and why should we?), but she cares deeply about the case and has spent more time researching than just about anyone.

I have read each post. I agree she knows this case well. I agree with that. She and Rachel did not go to school together. She grew up a few doors down from Debra which was closer to the same age. My question is why would she be so memorable to TT? Was she close to him? She said they were not. So that leaves a question as to why she would be so memorable to him?

 

[Two for the road]

You weren't srating that I was right/wrong about what? I haven't argued for a particular theory of the case.

EBM

That is not correct. A Da never has to prove motive.

A DA would not have to place the suspect at the scene of a secondary crime scene (i.e., the lake), either.

If the girls are found in a car that was owned by TT, that would mean that he had a vehicle go missing at the time of the girls' disappearance but failed to report it. That highly suspicious behavior would be evidence of guilt.

That plus the funny business about the letter would be enough to convict him.

Maybe in the court of public opinion... but in US criminal courts, no. DAs don't have to prove motive, you're correct. But it plays a major part in the narrative and sentencing. If a man kills his wife bc she's cheating his motive will affect sentencing worse than if a husband killed his wife because she was dying and he put her out of her misery. In both cases, husband is guilty of murder and his intent was to kill his wife, but for very different reasons.

This isn't a Wednesday night crime drama. The "funny business about the letter" isn't evidence at all. And just the fact that his vehicle was found in the lake isn't evidence of guilt either. Everything you mention as being slam dunk paves the way for reasonable doubt. TT borrowed someone that car. And even the police think the letter was legit.

You're arguing semantics here based solely on your opinion of guilt. But that's not how the US justice system works. With everything we, as the public, know about this case, none of it will culminate in a guilty verdict unless there is a confession.

Anybody could have put that car in the lake. He may not have reported because he ran a shop and didn't know it was missing. Without intent, motive, or a murder weapon (all of which is on the prosecution to provide!) ... it is improbable this case will even go to trial let alone lead to a murder conviction.

 

[TGwebs]

Maybe in the court of public opinion... but in US criminal courts, no. DAs don't have to prove motive, you're correct. But it plays a major part in the narrative and sentencing. If a man kills his wife bc she's cheating his motive will affect sentencing worse than if a husband killed his wife because she was dying and he put her out of her misery. In both cases, husband is guilty of murder and his intent was to kill his wife, but for very different reasons.

This isn't a Wednesday night crime drama. The "funny business about the letter" isn't evidence at all. And just the fact that his vehicle was found in the lake isn't evidence of guilt either. Everything you mention as being slam dunk paves the way for reasonable doubt. TT borrowed someone that car. And even the police think the letter was legit.

You're arguing semantics here based solely on your opinion of guilt. But that's not how the US justice system works. With everything we, as the public, know about this case, none of it will culminate in a guilty verdict unless there is a confession.

Anybody could have put that car in the lake. He may not have reported because he ran a shop and didn't know it was missing. Without intent, motive, or a murder weapon (all of which is on the prosecution to provide!) ... it is improbable this case will even go to trial let alone lead to a murder conviction.

Hi, Two for the road,
I understand everything you're saying but just wanted to clarify that TT's car has not been found in the lake. Your post reads like you're under that impression.
Cars have been found in the lake but they have not been linked to TT. That might change after the dive. Or they might just as easily find there is no connection to TT at all.

 

[Ozoner]

Maybe in the court of public opinion... but in US criminal courts, no. DAs don't have to prove motive, you're correct. But it plays a major part in the narrative and sentencing. If a man kills his wife bc she's cheating his motive will affect sentencing worse than if a husband killed his wife because she was dying and he put her out of her misery. In both cases, husband is guilty of murder and his intent was to kill his wife, but for very different reasons.

This isn't a Wednesday night crime drama. The "funny business about the letter" isn't evidence at all. And just the fact that his vehicle was found in the lake isn't evidence of guilt either. Everything you mention as being slam dunk paves the way for reasonable doubt. TT borrowed someone that car. And even the police think the letter was legit.

You're arguing semantics here based solely on your opinion of guilt. But that's not how the US justice system works. With everything we, as the public, know about this case, none of it will culminate in a guilty verdict unless there is a confession.

Anybody could have put that car in the lake. He may not have reported because he ran a shop and didn't know it was missing. Without intent, motive, or a murder weapon (all of which is on the prosecution to provide!) ... it is improbable this case will even go to trial let alone lead to a murder conviction.

I don't have an opinion of guilt, so I don't completely understand that part of your post. You're free to believe whatever you wish about what would or would not constitute sufficient evidence. It may be a moot point soon. I'd rate the probability of the girls' being in one of the cars as fairly low. I think the cars should be brought up anyway because someone could be in them. I'm not talking about murder victims, necessarily; people could have driven into the lake accidentally and drowned inside the cars.

 

[Valiant]

It boggles my mind that raising any car from the bottom of a lake wouldn't be standard procedure. Someone is probably in at least one of those cars. I won't be surprised if there are skeletons in all three cars.

Despite the attention from the press, most cars that end up in lakes and other bodies of water don’t have bodies in them. Those are just the ones that make the news. Lots of cars are dumped after a joy ride or by an owner looking to claim insurance for a car they no longer want. I recall 30 years ago they cleared a large number of cars, at least a dozen, from the river in Cincinnati preparing for a river festival. Those cars were all empty.

 

[Valiant]

Despite the attention from the press, most cars that end up in lakes and other bodies of water don’t have bodies in them. Those are just the ones that make the news. Lots of cars are dumped after a joy ride or by an owner looking to claim insurance for a car they no longer want. I recall 30 years ago they cleared a large number of cars, at least a dozen, from the river in Cincinnati preparing for a river festival. Those cars were all empty.

But I still think these cars should be brought up and checked.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

Because those families may never have the means of

Correct me if I'm incorrect. The only suspect that there is in your opinion is TT. You say that said suspect would definitely remember you, however you did not run in the same circles? Why would you be so memorable to them?

I was a teacher's kid. Everyone remembers that teacher.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

The problem is my name. Not unique, not 'Smith.' Someone decided to reveal my identity; someone I trusted.

 

[Bluebyrd78]

I wonder why he did that?
Did you ever hang out with Rachel and Debra growing up? And am I correct in believing that you were not connected to TT? Did you ever meet him? Did you know Rachel's parents? I used to go play with the kids on my street. Wondering if you have an inside view?

The problem is my name. Not unique, not 'Smith.' Someone decided to reveal my identity; someone I trusted.

 

[Deleted member 165916]

I wonder why he did that?
Did you ever hang out with Rachel and Debra growing up? And am I correct in believing that you were not connected to TT? Did you ever meet him? Did you know Rachel's parents? I used to go play with the kids on my street. Wondering if you have an inside view?

1) It's complicated. Disappointing. Surprising; not shocking.
2) No. Those kids did not go outside and "play."
3) Not in any way. My dad would have killed me. He smoked on the same corner as the "Bad Boys", but he wasn't in the club or their league. They weren't "bad." They were funny and cool. He was different; in a dead way. I can't explain it. He needed help and didn't get it. I have compassion for that.
4) It's the insider "outside view" that keeps my objectivity crispy. Experience and intuition are the tools that shaped my questions - still unanswered.

 

[Via Marple]

1) It's complicated. Disappointing. Surprising; not shocking.
2) No. Those kids did not go outside and "play."
3) Not in any way. My dad would have killed me. He smoked on the same corner as the "Bad Boys", but he wasn't in the club or their league. They weren't "bad." They were funny and cool. He was different; in a dead way. I can't explain it. He needed help and didn't get it. I have compassion for that.
4) It's the insider "outside view" that keeps my objectivity crispy. Experience and intuition are the tools that shaped my questions - still unanswered.

You know, having first hand observation of a suspect gives you a better insight, than anything you can glean from media reports. On the other hand, it can also make you more biased. Hope you don't mind me saying that.

I know I am like that with people I knew in my youth and whom I didn't trust. Usually turns out I was right, but sometimes not so much.

 

[Via Marple]

I would hope that the new cold case detective is paying attention to the lake operation this weekend. They may not believe there is anything in it, but it looks like it will draw a lot of people out, many of them were related one way or another to the victims and their families, as we can see in the FB group postings. You never know what more they might know.

 

[TGwebs]

I would hope that the new cold case detective is paying attention to the lake operation this weekend. They may not believe there is anything in it, but it looks like it will draw a lot of people out, many of them were related one way or another to the victims and their families, as we can see in the FB group postings. You never know what more they might know.

How many people from this group or planning to go? I know we have several locals.

 

[Parksestx]

How many people from this group or planning to go? I know we have several locals.

Weather is looking horrid there tomorrow.