TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

[Chypre]

 

[Chypre]

 

[beubeubeu]

Wilbanks commented about the letter being written by Rachel, possibly under duress. One school of thought is that he said that because initially Rachel's family stated it  was her handwriting. Then the other families saw the letter, and the story changed.
Houston serial killer Dean Corll operated in the early 1970s (killed by an accomplice in Aug '73), and made some of his victims call/ write letters to their families prior to killing them. The "voice" of the letters is very similar (IMO) to the letter in this case (regret for leaving, had to do it, will return in given timeframe, love you) . I'm not saying Corll took the girls-- he stayed in Houston, and targeted boys exclusively. I'm saying someone involved in the Trio's case may have known about the Corll case, and the author(s) of our letter may've been "inspired", and/or Wilbanks might've thought something similar happened...JMO

There was one more serial killer in the area with the note//letter scheme, can't recall his name - but I never saw anywhere if such details about these cases made it into newspapers prior to the girls disappearance.

 

[beubeubeu]

View attachment 448368

So I guess back in the days all convicted rapists either confessed or commited the act in presence of few reliable whitnesses and police officers.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Incidentally, it's been suggested that DA's marriage into a family that provided polygraph services in Fort Worth allowed her latitude with LE.  But, although she married DW about a month after the girls vanished, she was no longer married to him when DJ was allegedly giving her grief in the mid-to-late 90s, and didn't take the polygraphs till 2001, 2003.

 

[Chypre]

So I guess back in the days all convicted rapists either confessed or commited the act in presence of few reliable whitnesses and police officers.

Agree.
I think it's worth asking LE and any remaining journalists the identities of all involved. Edit to add: Or really, publicize it with a tip line number.
Was it typical not to give any names for the suspect? Any potential Trio suspects that were 23 at the time?

 

[scriabina]

Is there a cheat sheet to help me decipher all these initials I keep seeing?

ST, VB, DA, SM, CA, DJ

Pretty sure DA is the older sister of the oldest victim but not sure of the others...

 

[FW_Froggy]

Is there a cheat sheet to help me decipher all these initials I keep seeing?

ST, VB, DA, SM, CA, DJ

Pretty sure DA is the older sister of the oldest victim but not sure of the others...

ST(TT's first wife and young son) VB(TM's good much older friend) DA(yes your right) SM(DJ from Houston) DJ(2nd private investigator)....

 

[MysteryMaven]

I read most of this thread a while back but I am going to probably need to re-start from the beginning to refresh. However, from everything I read previously this seems like a crime of opportunity by a predator. The girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I don’t know if they even made it inside the mall. Is there concrete indisputable evidence they were in the building? They did not meet up with the 2 younger girls they were supposed to meet at 12 noon.

Is it true that Julie wasn’t seen at the Army store? I doubt she was with Shawn or at someone else’s house, there are no reports stating such. She was probably waiting in the car. Rachel wore the pants out of the store probably because she was excited about them. Not because she had some other plan no one knew about. Christmas time at the mall means she would probably see kids from school and she could show off her new purchase.
I don’t think that anyone in the families had anything to do with it.

There was another killer who grabbed a girl out of her parents driveway and made her write a letter to her family after abducting her. It is something that has happened in other cases. I think Rachel wrote the letter under duress.
Also who was THAT guy and was he in Texas in 1974?

 

[beubeubeu]

I read most of this thread a while back but I am going to probably need to re-start from the beginning to refresh. However, from everything I read previously this seems like a crime of opportunity by a predator.

Three girls are hardly an opportunity for a predator.
Yeah, completely possible for one perp to trick or abduct three minors.
But there was no foreseen sketchy or secluded area where girls could end up at that day.
Of course, highely unfortunate circumstances (for the girls) could happen but the odds for that...
I think that with single victims the ratio of so called "opportunistic" abductions is relatively high, but more than two sounds more like a planned abduction. Maybe not necessarily targeted at them specifically, but not oportunistic either.

Is there concrete indisputable evidence they were in the building? They did not meet up with the 2 younger girls they were supposed to meet at 12 noon.

There is no concrete indispitable evidence of anything here but the fact that girls are gone.
There was never any concrete and solid statement in regard of that meeting either. We don't know if it was like YES, WE WILL MEET YOU THERE (with full confidence) or more like oh yeah, so we should be there too then, let's meet and have a lunch together.

Is it true that Julie wasn’t seen at the Army store? I doubt she was with Shawn or at someone else’s house, there are no reports stating such. She was probably waiting in the car.

Even if she was with Shawn, there would be no reports of that cause if she were with him, then the most likely the only person who would keep his story straight and state that (if asked soon enough) would be... Shawn.
Apart from him, anyone who would report such a thing would also state that oh, yeah, not only I spend some time with Julie but obviously I also saw Renee & Rachel when they showed up to pick her up and go to the mall/home/somewhere...
And well, that's basically what ST allegedly did. Or rather DJ made it look like she did. But did she? Nobody knows but her at this point.

There was another killer who grabbed a girl out of her parents driveway and made her write a letter to her family after abducting her. It is something that has happened in other cases. I think Rachel wrote the letter under duress.
Also who was THAT guy and was he in Texas in 1974?

Allegedly those were ruled out by LE with reasons of being in another place. At least those serial killers who were already identified years back. Doesn't sound like it was unique so could be done by other local serial killer.

 

[Thewop356]

I don't know if this has been discussed on websleuths. Ocurred May 1974.View attachment 448289

Interesting to note that a serial killer in the area during 1974 name Mike (Mike Debardeleben), used the letter writing ruse and also used the security guard (but usually impersonated police) in later crimes he was associated with. Debardeleben was discussed in length on this thread though years ago. One thing to consider is that the suspected rapist for these 3 girls was only 23 and Debardeleben was in his 30s in 1974 and also the local police interviewed this suspect (the 23 year old) and he even admitted picking up the girls, but denied harming them in any way and the police must have had good reason to believe him cause they let him go.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

Interesting to note that a serial killer in the area during 1974 name Mike (Mike Debardeleben), used the letter writing ruse and also used the security guard (but usually impersonated police) in later crimes he was associated with. Debardeleben was discussed in length on this thread though years ago. One thing to consider is that the suspected rapist for these 3 girls was only 23 and Debardeleben was in his 30s in 1974 and also the local police interviewed this suspect (the 23 year old) and he even admitted picking up the girls, but denied harming them in any way and the police must have had good reason to believe him cause they let him go.

I wonder if there was a situation where Debardeleben tried to abduct more than one person ? It would be risky trying to abduct three people of varying ages in one go, in a crowded area like a parking lot of a Shopping Mall two days before Christmas.

The car was parked on the periphery of the car park where I suppose an abduction could be easier, but on the flip side, even as a teen I think, instinctively, I would be more wary of a security guard 'hanging around' the quieter area of a car park, than one nearer buildings/people.

Anyway, I don't think stranger abduction from the Mall is the most likely scenario in this case.

 

[beubeubeu]

I wonder if there was a situation where Debardeleben tried to abduct more than one person ? It would be risky trying to abduct three people of varying ages in one go, in a crowded area like a parking lot of a Shopping Mall two days before Christmas.

How do you know it was crowded?
Mall itself, parking lots close to the mall probably were pretty crowded, but farther from the entrance... people had no reason to go to unless they were coming out or back to their cars, maybe some driving around to look for a spot to park.
Whole abduction would probably not take long, and even if some whitnesses saw something...
It was the mall, full of kids. Huge mall, lots of kids. Probably dozens of them were ending up screaming while dragged back to the car by their parents.
There are two claims from these alleged whitnesses - story from/about old lady who saw girls forced to a car, and that guy who whitnessed similar thing. People read about it in news and there was no public outcry like OH GOD HOW COULD THEY SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND NOT START SCREAMING TO ALARM EVERYONE AROUND, CALL SECURITY, CALL COPS, HOW COULD THEY?! It was probably more like "oh, what a shame they didn't knew sooner, I'd probably figure that it's nothing serious if I whitnessed that myself".

The car was parked on the periphery of the car park where I suppose an abduction could be easier, but on the flip side, even as a teen I think, instinctively, I would be more wary of a security guard 'hanging around' the quieter area of a car park, than one nearer buildings/people.

But would you notice him? While with friend and a kid you're supposed to take care of, possibly very excited about shopping or having a lot of things that need to be done before Christmas?

 

[Valiant]

How do you know it was crowded?
Mall itself, parking lots close to the mall probably were pretty crowded, but farther from the entrance... people had no reason to go to unless they were coming out or back to their cars, maybe some driving around to look for a spot to park.
Whole abduction would probably not take long, and even if some whitnesses saw something...
It was the mall, full of kids. Huge mall, lots of kids. Probably dozens of them were ending up screaming while dragged back to the car by their parents.
There are two claims from these alleged whitnesses - story from/about old lady who saw girls forced to a car, and that guy who whitnessed similar thing. People read about it in news and there was no public outcry like OH GOD HOW COULD THEY SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND NOT START SCREAMING TO ALARM EVERYONE AROUND, CALL SECURITY, CALL COPS, HOW COULD THEY?! It was probably more like "oh, what a shame they didn't knew sooner, I'd probably figure that it's nothing serious if I whitnessed that myself".

But would you notice him? While with friend and a kid you're supposed to take care of, possibly very excited about shopping or having a lot of things that need to be done before Christmas?

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the mall parking lots saw a decent amount of activity. A crowded mall meant a busy parking lot as most malls were in the suburban areas, not in places you traveled to via public transit.
Shopping Malls were big deals back then and they really drew people in during the holidays. I'd bet most parts of the parking lot offered very little privacy that day, with people waking to their cars, from their cars, or just driving around trying to find a more convenient parking spot.

 

[Brightchaser47]

How do you know it was crowded?
Mall itself, parking lots close to the mall probably were pretty crowded, but farther from the entrance... people had no reason to go to unless they were coming out or back to their cars, maybe some driving around to look for a spot to park.
Whole abduction would probably not take long, and even if some whitnesses saw something...
It was the mall, full of kids. Huge mall, lots of kids. Probably dozens of them were ending up screaming while dragged back to the car by their parents.
There are two claims from these alleged whitnesses - story from/about old lady who saw girls forced to a car, and that guy who whitnessed similar thing. People read about it in news and there was no public outcry like OH GOD HOW COULD THEY SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND NOT START SCREAMING TO ALARM EVERYONE AROUND, CALL SECURITY, CALL COPS, HOW COULD THEY?! It was probably more like "oh, what a shame they didn't knew sooner, I'd probably figure that it's nothing serious if I whitnessed that myself".

I agree that the mall and parking areas probably saw a lot of traffic that day, and that an abduction could've been accomplished rather quickly. But the idea that there were witnesses who reported it, yet nothing was done about it? Really? Ignoring a kidnapping makes even less sense than suspecting every missing kid of running away...and this was less than a year after Carla Walker.

 

[LukeNazgul]

From what i read they went missing in the afternoon of 23rd December. Next morning the letter was recieved. If the letter was written and posted after the girls went missing, is it really likely that the letter will be received the next morning? I'm not from the US, but Is US postal service that efficient?

 

[Brightchaser47]

From what i read they went missing in the afternoon of 23rd December. Next morning the letter was recieved. If the letter was written and posted after the girls went missing, is it really likely that the letter will be received the next morning? I'm not from the US, but Is US postal service that efficient?

Today it wouldn't likely happen, but at that time, Fort Worth was a smaller town, and mail was processed differently, so it was very possible. There are several good posts covering this subject on earlier threads (lots of reading).

 

[Valiant]

From what i read they went missing in the afternoon of 23rd December. Next morning the letter was recieved. If the letter was written and posted after the girls went missing, is it really likely that the letter will be received the next morning? I'm not from the US, but Is US postal service that efficient?

Yes, at the time this occurred mail could have made that trip. We could mail a letter to my grandparents who lived an hour away and they’d get it the next day back then. Eventually everything went to a central hub for processing and it was no longer next day.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Fastlyyyyyy approaching 49 years Dec. 23rd 2023.......

 

[Brightchaser47]

Fastlyyyyyy approaching 49 years Dec. 23rd 2023.......

Yes, FW_Froggy. And it's  very frustrating...