Found Deceased TX - Michael Chambers, 70, Hunt County, 10 March 2017 #6

[Tripod]

I’ve never heard of the Pike Co. Massacre, so no. lol It may not have been the VI, but I’ve specifically seen that information in regards to this case.


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Lol I don't know if anyone else calls it that, but it was the horrific slaughter of 8 various family members in 3 different homes, 2 yrs. ago. Still no arrests. I keep wracking my brain but just don't remember anybody confirming money in Papaw's shop. I do remember some conjecture, and do remember there was money in his truck and in the house, supposedly.

 

[Tripod]

I could have sworn it was briefly mentioned back at the beginning of all this and then kind of forgotten about.. like the dowel. Maybe it was on the BPH page??

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That could be possible.

 

[Tripod]

Same feeling here. When Klein said he didn’t think it was a hit because they made mistakes, I thought- not a professional hit. A hit by someone he knew, something planned by a couple/few beginners, amateurs- absolutely. JMO.

I just tried to quote parts of 3 different posts, but failed horribly. I apologize for having to type separate posts to reply or respond to folks. I just don't know how to do it, unless one can do "Reply to Thread" and add in copy and pastes?

I wanted to clarify that I do mostly agree with Save, creepcrusher and others here who think this was planned. I have no doubt at least some of this was planned, maybe all of it. I always hedge my bets and can see another scenario, though it's less likely.

 

[Tripod]

Same feeling here. When Klein said he didn’t think it was a hit because they made mistakes, I thought- not a professional hit. A hit by someone he knew, something planned by a couple/few beginners, amateurs- absolutely. JMO.

Thank you for the correction, Tripod! You are absolutely right:

“There is a concerning amount, but not a fatal amount. There is a sink, but the blood trail leads to the door, not the bathroom.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-1&p=13305714#post13305714

As to the dowel, it’s a mystery to me, too.

Here are a couple of things our VI told us about the dowel back in August:

August 11, 2017:
“They [HCSO] took the dowel, but not the first day. I believe my uncle noticed it, or maybe one of the car show guys, and brought it up so they came out and collected it. They missed it in their ‘processing’ of the scene.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562674#post13562674

August 14, 2017:
“I wasn’t t present when the dowel rod was found and was only given a second-hand description of it. My understanding is that it was leaning against one of the cars in the shop, the one closest to the pool of blood.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562796#post13562796

And here are some things she shared about the blood found inside the shop:

June 12, 2017:
“There were no footprints in the blood. Also, no drag marks in the blood.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562796#post13562796

June 14, 2017:
“I saw the blood in the days after he went missing (I didn't know about it until Saturday and couldn't get there until Sunday). On Sunday, when I first saw it, it was dried. OVer the next couple of days, I can't remember what day because I didn't think it would matter... it was crystallizing. To me, that says that it was fresh on Friday and not from an old wound.

There are no drag marks or smears at all. The pool is made up of many gathered drops - not like he had been laying there or like it had dripped down his leg, more like it had fallen from a distance off his arm or ear or nose or something higher than his leg. The blood drops are like big splats (a little smaller than a quarter) - no direction or teardropping to them, straight down - all of them in the pool look that way and all of the ones on the way to the door do as well. The ones on the way to the door are more than 2 feet apart each, and stop completely about 3~ feet from the door. There are no drops on the concrete pad outside the shop, none on the deck surrounding the concrete pad, none in the dirt either.

I'm sure I'm not supposed to share all of that, but at this point, I don't care. Hopefully some of you are able to help given this information.

I hope someone can answer about testing whether the blood came from his nose or not, that would be interesting to know and at least might help eliminate something if it can't confirm it.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-1&p=13436511#post13436511

Whereas Mr. Klein says (paraphrasing) there was a large amount found both on the floor and the dowel.

It appears to him MC might have been hit over the head, “dog-walked” (two people holding each end of the body), placed on a tarp and carried out of the garage via the garage door, based on the fact that there was no blood found outside and the patterns of droplets.

So the VI first saw the blood two days after MC went missing. IIRC, Mr. Klein said he studied photos of the scene, which I assume were taken the night of or the day after the disappearance (though I do not believe he said exactly when).

I just cannot reconcile the vast differences between their respective descriptions of what the blood looked like.

Mr. Klein also said he did not believe the scene was staged.

Is it possible, though, that some clean-up was done between the time the pictures were taken to when the VI saw the blood? The VI also stated HCSO took the dowel, but not the first day, and that “they missed it in their ‘processing’ of the scene.” Or is it possible the dowel was not there during the processing of the scene, but it was placed there sometime between Friday and whenever it was found?

But then I cannot think of a single motive for doing either one of these, and it also sounds way too risky, as there probably were many, many people, including LE, on and off the property looking for MC during that time.

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Thanks, IMHO. I was immediately struck by Klein's comments about how much blood he thought was there, too. I know our VI was alarmed by the blood drops, but she agreed with Meeks and others who thought it wasn't nearly enough to be fatal. Perhaps Mr. Klein hedges his bets, too

I was glad to hear Mr. Klein believes HCSO and others did do very thorough searches. That lays to rest a few things, for me, even though they did an abysmal job at scene protection.

I'm very glad you found the VI post re: BC being adamant that suicide wasn't possible. I wonder if she changed her mind about that.......

Last, and sort of unrelated to above discussion: in my mind, the $25,000 reward offered to locate Papaw is a sizeable amount. No one has tried to claim it for a very long time.

 

[KeepTheLightOn]

Thoughts and prayers going out to JC and your family. Wishing you a speedy recovery.

 

[Razz]

There are several things I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around.
For instance: Pawpa knew about BC's indiscretions and didn't care? In fact, Klein said MC and BC's boyfriend had a conversation about the affair a year previous?! I am flabbergasted by that.

Also, what did Klein mean by "an issue
arose in the garage and he was hit over the head".....An issue arose? What kind of issue? Was he talking with someone who hit him over the head because of an issue?! This makes it sound a little less nefarious. Like an argument gone bad?!!!

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[flute4peace]

I should probably listen again, but I didn't get the impression that MC was necessarily ok with the affair, only that he was aware of it. Just because there was a discussion between MC & BF, doesn't mean it was an amicable one. (When my former BIL cheated on my sister, the conversation that was had between former BIL & his GF's husband certainly wasn't.) Could MC have been under the impression that the affair had ended a year earlier, but discovered it wasn't the case while BC was off work recuperating from her surgery, and things came to a head?

JMHO, as always

There are several things I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around.
For instance: Pawpa knew about BC's indiscretions and didn't care? In fact, Klein said MC and BC's boyfriend had a conversation about the affair a year previous?! I am flabbergasted by that.

Also, what did Klein mean by "an issue
arose in the garage and he was hit over the head".....An issue arose? What kind of issue? Was he talking with someone who hit him over the head because of an issue?! This makes it sound a little less nefarious. Like an argument gone bad?!!!

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[nannymo]

Do we know how BC broke her wrist? Has it been reported in MSM how it happened?

 

[nannymo]

Does MC's situation have anything to do with her broken wrist? Could this be related or just coincidence that he went missing after her injury?

 

[Talullah]

A VI said BC broke her wrist when she fell in the parking lot at work.

 

[ocgrad]

I should probably listen again, but I didn't get the impression that MC was necessarily ok with the affair, only that he was aware of it. Just because there was a discussion between MC & BF, doesn't mean it was an amicable one. (When my former BIL cheated on my sister, the conversation that was had between former BIL & his GF's husband certainly wasn't.) Could MC have been under the impression that the affair had ended a year earlier, but discovered it wasn't the case while BC was off work recuperating from her surgery, and things came to a head?

JMHO, as always

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Unless they have corroborating stories of how he felt about the affairs from MC's kids and/or others who were close to him, or if they have texting with the boyfriends or BC that is a statement in MC's own words, then the only thing we know about his attitude toward the affairs is what BC or the BF says, which can be anything since MC is no longer here to speak for himself.

 

[Talullah]

I don’t know how to edit my post or post a quote but on 08/16/17 PMerle said BC fell in a parking lot on her way to work.

 

[Razz]

Unless they have corroborating stories of how he felt about the affairs from MC's kids and/or others who were close to him, or if they have texting with the boyfriends or BC that is a statement in MC's own words, then the only thing we know about his attitude toward the affairs is what BC or the BF says, which can be anything since MC is no longer here to speak for himself.

In Klein's interview, he stated he came to the conclusion that MC was aware of her affairs and didn't care through his many interviews with those who knew MC.

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[ocgrad]

In Klein's interview, he stated he came to the conclusion that MC was aware of her affairs and didn't care through his many interviews with those who knew MC.

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I will listen again.

 

[kidetect22]

In Klein's interview, he stated he came to the conclusion that MC was aware of her affairs and didn't care through his many interviews with those who knew MC.

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I feel like the point Klein was making was that the affairs were very public knowledge, no one was throwing BC under the bus, he wasn’t calling her out, or trying to demoralize her character/ I think MC knew of the affairs, yes, probably had a convo with a boyfriend, had thought the affair was over etc. who is to say the boyfriend didn’t tell MC that BC told him she was filing for divorce or maybe BC had told the boyfriend they had an open marriage and MC set the record straight, boyfriend apologized, MC thought it was over and forgave BC ?!! We don’t know exactly to what extent MC was “okay with”. If that makes any kind of sense what so ever. I just know in some marriages people think it’s over, they forgive and willing to move on. That wouldn’t be me, but that maybe was how MC felt.

 

[Razz]

I feel like the point Klein was making was that the affairs were very public knowledge, no one was throwing BC under the bus, he wasn’t calling her out, or trying to demoralize her character/ I think MC knew of the affairs, yes, probably had a convo with a boyfriend, had thought the affair was over etc. who is to say the boyfriend didn’t tell MC that BC told him she was filing for divorce or maybe BC had told the boyfriend they had an open marriage and MC set the record straight, boyfriend apologized, MC thought it was over and forgave BC ?!! We don’t know exactly to what extent MC was “okay with”. If that makes any kind of sense what so ever. I just know in some marriages people think it’s over, they forgive and willing to move on. That wouldn’t be me, but that maybe was how MC felt.

I agree that we don't know to what extent MC was ok with anything. However, Klein's statements regarding this struck me as.......odd and not something I would have thought was part of MC's character. I felt Klein was almost flippant about it.

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[ocgrad]

I feel like the point Klein was making was that the affairs were very public knowledge, no one was throwing BC under the bus, he wasn’t calling her out, or trying to demoralize her character/ I think MC knew of the affairs, yes, probably had a convo with a boyfriend, had thought the affair was over etc. who is to say the boyfriend didn’t tell MC that BC told him she was filing for divorce or maybe BC had told the boyfriend they had an open marriage and MC set the record straight, boyfriend apologized, MC thought it was over and forgave BC ?!! We don’t know exactly to what extent MC was “okay with”. If that makes any kind of sense what so ever. I just know in some marriages people think it’s over, they forgive and willing to move on. That wouldn’t be me, but that maybe was how MC felt.

I think the statement that MC was OK with the affairs was that he was not depressed over it. But the convo with the bf happened a year ago. And there were others, friends with benefits. I bet MC didn't know the extent of his wife's extra marital activities. And I think it is likely when he talked with the bf a year earlier that commitments were made that it was over, and he was OK, forgave and went on with life. I don't think Klein was saying MC accepted an open marriage and a wife having multiple extra marital relationships. That doesn't square with what we have heard of him. I don't think Klein was speaking of continued adultery. He did make it sound like this man with a big heart was willing to move on. To me that sounds like someone who believed it was over. But then the broken wrist and recovery and things may have changed. Sometimes people turn a blind eye and accept things they suspect but have no proof of hoping they will eventually go away on their own, until it gets thrown in their face and they are almost forced to act. Sometimes people accept being marginalized in a marriage until they realize it's public knowledge, until family or friends speak out on it. Sometimes it takes some humiliation to exercise their backbone. He doesn't seem like a weak person who was ok with being walked on.

 

[ocgrad]

I agree that we don't know to what extent MC was ok with anything. However, Klein's statements regarding this struck me as.......odd and not something I would have thought was part of MC's character. I felt Klein was almost flippant about it.

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I don't think flippant but unconcerned in that it was not a cause of suicidal depression.

 

[Razz]

Thank you for the correction, Tripod! You are absolutely right:

“There is a concerning amount, but not a fatal amount. There is a sink, but the blood trail leads to the door, not the bathroom.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-1&p=13305714#post13305714

As to the dowel, it’s a mystery to me, too.

Here are a couple of things our VI told us about the dowel back in August:

August 11, 2017:
“They [HCSO] took the dowel, but not the first day. I believe my uncle noticed it, or maybe one of the car show guys, and brought it up so they came out and collected it. They missed it in their ‘processing’ of the scene.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562674#post13562674

August 14, 2017:
“I wasn’t t present when the dowel rod was found and was only given a second-hand description of it. My understanding is that it was leaning against one of the cars in the shop, the one closest to the pool of blood.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562796#post13562796

And here are some things she shared about the blood found inside the shop:

June 12, 2017:
“There were no footprints in the blood. Also, no drag marks in the blood.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-3&p=13562796#post13562796

June 14, 2017:
“I saw the blood in the days after he went missing (I didn't know about it until Saturday and couldn't get there until Sunday). On Sunday, when I first saw it, it was dried. OVer the next couple of days, I can't remember what day because I didn't think it would matter... it was crystallizing. To me, that says that it was fresh on Friday and not from an old wound.

There are no drag marks or smears at all. The pool is made up of many gathered drops - not like he had been laying there or like it had dripped down his leg, more like it had fallen from a distance off his arm or ear or nose or something higher than his leg. The blood drops are like big splats (a little smaller than a quarter) - no direction or teardropping to them, straight down - all of them in the pool look that way and all of the ones on the way to the door do as well. The ones on the way to the door are more than 2 feet apart each, and stop completely about 3~ feet from the door. There are no drops on the concrete pad outside the shop, none on the deck surrounding the concrete pad, none in the dirt either.

I'm sure I'm not supposed to share all of that, but at this point, I don't care. Hopefully some of you are able to help given this information.

I hope someone can answer about testing whether the blood came from his nose or not, that would be interesting to know and at least might help eliminate something if it can't confirm it.” (BBM)

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-10-March-2017-1&p=13436511#post13436511

Whereas Mr. Klein says (paraphrasing) there was a large amount found both on the floor and the dowel.

It appears to him MC might have been hit over the head, “dog-walked” (two people holding each end of the body), placed on a tarp and carried out of the garage via the garage door, based on the fact that there was no blood found outside and the patterns of droplets.

So the VI first saw the blood two days after MC went missing. IIRC, Mr. Klein said he studied photos of the scene, which I assume were taken the night of or the day after the disappearance (though I do not believe he said exactly when).

I just cannot reconcile the vast differences between their respective descriptions of what the blood looked like.

Mr. Klein also said he did not believe the scene was staged.

Is it possible, though, that some clean-up was done between the time the pictures were taken to when the VI saw the blood? The VI also stated HCSO took the dowel, but not the first day, and that “they missed it in their ‘processing’ of the scene.” Or is it possible the dowel was not there during the processing of the scene, but it was placed there sometime between Friday and whenever it was found?

But then I cannot think of a single motive for doing either one of these, and it also sounds way too risky, as there probably were many, many people, including LE, on and off the property looking for MC during that time.

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Excellent post imho. I can always depend on you to get the required
links that makes things easier to see and accept.

I'm puzzled about the dogwalking scenario. If there were two people holding his hands and his feet, how did at least one of them avoid walking in the blood and smearing it? I'm trying to visualize this and I'm having a hard time doing so. Any suggestions?

Also, if BC was present, I don't see her being able to dogwalk w/ MC. Unless, there were 3 people present. But the more people involved means there's a better chance someone will talk or that something can go wrong.

And I keep thinking about his dog. If someone did hurt MC, what kept that poor dog from going crazy? My dogs
would absolutely go nuts if I was harmed. And they were sweet dogs.
A westie and a lab.


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[ocgrad]

Excellent post imho. I can always depend on you to get the required
links that makes things easier to see and accept.

I'm puzzled about the dogwalking scenario. If there were two people holding his hands and his feet, how did at least one of them avoid walking in the blood and smearing it? I'm trying to visualize this and I'm having a hard time doing so. Any suggestions?

Also, if BC was present, I don't see her being able to dogwalk w/ MC. Unless, there were 3 people present. But the more people involved means there's a better chance someone will talk or that something can go wrong.

And I keep thinking about his dog. If someone did hurt MC, what kept that poor dog from going crazy? My dogs
would absolutely go nuts if I was harmed. And they were sweet dogs.
A westie and a lab.


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I thought the same thing. I feel that someone could have planted blood in a way to look like he staggered and it might appear the same as the dog walk pattern. But we didn't see it and he did. Interesting that the State trooper thinks the blood was planted and is not able to take the case away from HCSO. I wonder how often the State feels a local office is mishandling an investigation but does nothing.
I saw comments from nurses who say arterial blood would spray not drip. I wonder what other health care people would say. Is it possible if blood was taken from him with a syringe that it could be arterial blood?
The dowel had been a mystery but more so now knowing that it wasnt just a single smear but it was "bloodied". I'm not sure if that means it was handled with bloody hands or if it fell into the blood on the floor. However nothing has ever indicated the blood on the floor was disturbed by anything, even this dowel.
In an earlier post Hazelnutty speculated that the original plan was to make it look like a suicide with Michael using the dowel to push the trigger on the rifle. But when it was attempted, mistakes were made and it would have been obvious to an investigator that it was homicide and/or staged so they quickly got his body out of there. I've turned that over in my mind since she posted. Klein describes the scene as he imagines it that he was hit or shot and carried out but his speculation almost requires someone to catch his body at the point of impact or at least some of the blood on the floor would be deposited from his fall and not be in drops. I think it would be obvious if his body hit the floor after being hit or shot. Unless he didn't go down immediately or didn't start to bleed until he was lifted. How are you imagining the scene as Klein describes it in which he was attacked?