TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

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JPS’ legal counsel, Neal Adams, has taken a clear stance against abortion rights. According to the Star-Telegram, Adams “led the drive to end abortions at JPS in 1988,” and is also an advisory board member at the Northeast Tarrant County Right To Life Educational Association. According to the group’s website, its focus is to “educate the public on the value of human life from the moment of conception in the hope that the life of the unborn child will be protected from conception to natural birth.”

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...resented-by-anti-choice-lawyer-family-to-sue/
 
BBM. Agreed! Except.......it isn't that simple, unfortunately.

I agree, we should all do our due diligence, as ,uch as possible, when we choose our health care providers. But more and more, patients are less able to “control” who that person is, or will be, when a medical situation occurs, electively or urgently. And with the new “Obamacare” consequences, choice will become more and more limited in some rural geographic areas. We already have geographic mandatory service areas carved out, and some insurers pulling out of some areas, leaving very limited choice of providers.

It’s really sad for me to think we may actually have to come to a place in health care where individual providers may have to “disclose” their political and religious beliefs to their community and patients, just a politicians do now. Merely discussing with your provider what their end of life, or religious/ moral/ ethical/ political views are is really not enough. What about emergencies? On call situations? Lack of other available providers to switch to, if the one in front of you doesn’t share your beliefs?

Reference my post earlier in the thread (I’ll find it and add it in to this post) about women who thoroughly discussed their choice of having a tubal ligation following the birth of their child, cleared this with their insurance provider (Medicaid, in most all of these circumstances I have been involved in) and then were faced with a different doc on call who does not agree with ANY woman having a tubal, at the very time when they are being prepped for a semi-urgent (not life threatening) c-section. That is a vulnerable woman who made her wishes known well in advance, her insurance company agreed, she had informed consent, and simply because a “pro life” doc is on call, she is forced to have another hospitalization at another time, with more cost to her and the insurance company, and more risk from another more complicated surgical procedure, another anesthetic, and the loss of time from work (for most women, very low paying jobs, who have, multiple children, and are single parents). This is obviously not an end of life situation, but a clear example of patients held hostage to the religious/ ethical/ moral beliefs of the ONLY provider available. That in itself is unethical, IMO, especially when this provider's beliefs are at odds with 99.99999% of practicing providers in that specialty.

No patient should be held hostage to the religious and political beliefs of their doctor or health care provider—that is absurd in the extreme. But it does happen. And many time the ones held captive to the beliefs of the doctor or provider are vulnerable themselves, by educational inequality, intellectual inequality, socioeconomic status, personality, sickness, stress, debilitation, altered level of consciousness. It is an inherently unequal power position—sick people seeking health care, and the “powerful” and knowledgable healthcare providers. The last thing patients should have to be worried about when faced with important health care decisions, is “what are the religious beliefs, political affiliation, and moral and ethical persuasions of this provider, and will my wishes be honored?” It’s very sad and disturbing that we have come to this.

I’m picturing something like a political score card being posted in waiting rooms and local newspapers, like those who are running for office. Do we make all health care providers fill out a detailed religious/ethical/ political position questionnaire, and make the results public? Dr. XYZ, followed by letters indicating their religious affiliation, political party, and whether they will follow end of life directives, and whether they are pro choice or pro life, etc. Imagine how ridiculous that would be? Should we have all health care providers wear color coded stickers on their name tags, so everyone knows at a glance without asking what their political and religious positions are? Where does it end?

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Thank you for your thoughts. It may be that when my time comes, I'll just have to lie down on the floor, die & hope I can stand the accompanying pain. The best case scenario would be just to drop dead on the spot with no one around to intervene.
 
I am in complete support of Mr. Munoz's wishes in this matter.

Attempting to bring a very early 2 nd tri fetus to viability inside a corpse has little to do with the 'right to life' movement. If anything, it speaks to a Hospital Administration having a serious case of institutional grandiosity and a couple of lawyers with an axe to grind against the pro-choice camp.

I suspect that somewhere in this ethical and medical disaster is a physician or two wanting to see just how far the envelope (in this case, the uterus) can be pushed. Case in point - JPS FW, TX is first and foremost a teaching hospital with an active research faculty.

http://www.jpshealthnet.org/For-Medical-Professionals/Obstetrics-and-Gynecology.aspx


Perhaps the hospital & staff feared being arrested and charged with murder? Perhaps they were "just following orders"




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BBM. Which make it even more disturbing that these people in this situation actively avoided the scientific and ethical oversight and consensus models of the scientific method-- no ethics committee involvement, no investigational review board approval, no research protocols, no informed consent, etc.

Obscene in the extreme, for a research hospital to engage in this method of unapproved "care". Really, really disturbing. IMO.


BTW, I have a young friend whose husband is a 4th year medical student & will begin his internship later this spring. He interviewed at JPS & worked there for about a month. He has also applied for residency there in Emergency Medicine. As I understand it, a computer will eventually match up applicant desires with a hospital's assessment of the applicants.

I messaged him about this case but he did not respond..........probably he is not allowed or fears to respond. I wonder if this case will cause him to rethink his situation. Being a father to young children could factor into his thinking but I also believe him to be a highly ethical person. I do not envy him!!
 
JPS’ legal counsel, Neal Adams, has taken a clear stance against abortion rights. According to the Star-Telegram, Adams “led the drive to end abortions at JPS in 1988,” and is also an advisory board member at the Northeast Tarrant County Right To Life Educational Association. According to the group’s website, its focus is to “educate the public on the value of human life from the moment of conception in the hope that the life of the unborn child will be protected from conception to natural birth.”

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...resented-by-anti-choice-lawyer-family-to-sue/


Yeah, I've heard Adams' name tossed around too but I never could find a link. Thanks for providing it.
 
I don't have alot of respect for protestors, I think lots are looking for their 15 minutes of fame. jmo idk What should be looked into is why is a county (state) hospital allowed to dictate what services it provides. jmo idk
 
I have a question & because I am NOT a member of the medical profession, I have no idea what would happen in the following situation.

Let's say the case goes to the appeal courts. Of course they can keep the case running out the clock hoping the fetus becomes viable. BUT, what happens if Marlise's dead body shuts down completely of it's own accord before the fetus is viable? What would the hospital do then.........deliver a fetus who is not viable? I'm not at all clear just how long a dead body can be maintained by machines.

BBM.

I don't think it is at all clear what these (IMO, rogue) docs might do, faced with precarious "viability" (physiologically doubtful, but the legal def will override probably), and a perimortem bedside cesarean situation. I think it is entirely probable they would "try" it, only because they have treated MM's body in an unreasonably medically aggressive manner thus far. But I don't think the neonate will survive. But still, that becomes a "win-win" for the prolife politics-- "we did everything we could".

If they choose perimortem c/s at the bedside, literature supports doing the c/s within 4 minutes of cardiac arrest. So decision making time will be brief, and there won't be a lot of discussion about it. Whomever is present will make the call, unless they have been limited before hand by a court order, IMO.

I see a lot of posts tossing about "viability" as if it is some kind of magic moment. That is far from sure. And we don't even know how certain MM's dates are. Most "due" dates are an estimation of conception. They can vary by a week or 2 commonly, depending on the particular physiology of the woman. Most EDC's are calculated on the last menstrual period, which is a known, but only estimates the "window" for conception. Most of the time the "wheel" is used, or a broad estimate that takes the last day of the last menstrual period, subtracts 3 months, and adds a week. EDC's are ESTIMATES, not hard and fast due dates. Most women with naturally conceived pregnancies don't really understand this, and hang onto "the date" tenaciously, as if it were scientifically carved in stone.

The biophysical profile of the fetus, along with other more sensitive tests and measurements, taking into account all of the prenatal factors, is much more accurate than simply saying "next week" the fetus is viable, but "today" it is not.

But I realize we are talking about politicians determining viability, not medical professionals or scientists. So all bets are off. Just like the continuing discussion in the poll thread that insists "the fetus is fully formed" in the first 12 weeks, and "nothing" that occurs subsequent to that can change that. That is really, really inaccurate. I posted links earlier in this thread describing situations where the fetus in early development CAN be morphologically changed, even in the absence of an underlying genetic anomaly. But once people get their "talking points" and catch phrases cemented in their vocabulary, it is difficult to persuade them that their ideas may be incorrect, even with evidence. It becomes their mantra to reinforce a deeply held belief., whether it is accurate or not. IMO.
 
BTW, I have a young friend whose husband is a 4th year medical student & will begin his internship later this spring. He interviewed at JPS & worked there for about a month. He has also applied for residency there in Emergency Medicine. As I understand it, a computer will eventually match up applicant desires with a hospital's assessment of the applicants.

I messaged him about this case but he did not respond..........probably he is not allowed or fears to respond. I wonder if this case will cause him to rethink his situation. Being a father to young children could factor into his thinking but I also believe him to be a highly ethical person. I do not envy him!!

I think there are certainly a LOT of wonderful, highly competent, highly ethical providers at JPS hospital. Just as there is at CHO, who has been unfairly vilified by the Mc Math family and their attorney. I'm sad that they are smeared, or even worried about their reputation being smeared, by association with this situation. It is highly unfair, and very sad. This hospital has done a lot of good work, and will continue to do so. But this situation is a very big black eye on the hospital's reputation, and will cost them real dollars, and credibility in the present and future. Some very high level people are responsible for that, in addition to the bedside docs and nurses.

I think we are talking about a very small cadre of docs and administrators who are making the decisions in the MM case.
 
This is so upsetting to me. Do these people really believe every child is wanted and there are offers (genuine) to adopt this child? What about the thousands of severely disabled children in foster-care? Aren't they important and deserving of a forever family?



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Some folks don't let hypocrisy get in the way of a good argument.
 
Oh my gosh that is NOT what this ruling means! Please guys!

There is NO LAW stating a hospital MUST cease life support when the person is declared brain dead. <modsnip> If that was the case, there would be no organ donation.

Where are you seeing MUST anywhere in there. I said it's up to the hospital and so did jjenny, iirc.

eta: I went back and looked at my post. I said it is "up to" the hospitals. Nothing Must-y about that! lol
 
Hospital not appealing CNN


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Bud Kennedy &#8207;@BudKennedy 1m
With protesters on way, @JPS_Health announces it will comply with court order to remove #MarliseMuñoz's life support pic.twitter.com/F6BrLTOebb

Nick Valencia &#8207;@CNNValencia 29s
BREAKING- Texas hospital says it will follow order to remove pregnant brain dead woman from ventilator. #MarliseMunoz #CNN

https://twitter.com/BudKennedy/status/427496112685998080/photo/1
 
FWIW, I was born at 26 weeks, 48 years ago. I was 11" long, and weighed 2lbs. some odd ounces. Obviously, I survived, although I was developmentally delayed a bit -- didn't sit up until I was over a year old, had a giant pumpkin head....but I'm pretty much over all that now.

Not that it'll matter much in this case...but for future reference, anyway.
 
Ryan Sloane &#8207;@RyanSloaneCNN 52s
Programming note: @CNNValencia will have the latest from Ft. Worth on #MarliseMunoz being taken off life support at 2pm ET.

I think this means they will have a report at 2PM, not that she is being removed from the vent at 2. :dunno: It is worded weird. :waitasec:
 
My thoughts all along have been that the hospital was just bound by the Texas law, not that anyone was pushing an agenda. Here's their statement saying they will follow the court order:

http://twitter.com/BudKennedy/status/427496112685998080/photo/1

It's a tragedy and horrible situations for everyone involved and my heart breaks for the family and the caregivers.

To me, it has seemed that the hospital was just protecting itself from possible legal ramifications only to find itself in a worse legal situation (and under the scrutiny of the nation).
 
Before the whole "brain dead" definition doctors would have been guilty of murder if they removed them like they currently do.


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