TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Cause of death for the mother isn't known either. I thought autopsy was required.

Yes. They should be doing on on both of them. They think she suffered from a blood clot But I all I find is think.. Not know that she did.

 

[SeekingJana]

Sending love and prayers to Erick Muñoz and the rest of Marlise's family. I will never forget. This was such a horrible tragedy in all ways.

S.J.

 

[jjenny]

Yes. They should be doing on on both of them. They think she suffered from a blood clot But I all I find is think.. Not know that she did.

Yea, they are just guessing. They don't know why she died.
My understanding is that Jahi McMath has to return to the coroner for an autopsy when her heart stops.
Why wouldn't the same be required here?

 

[K_Z]

Yes. They should be doing on on both of them. They think she suffered from a blood clot But I all I find is think.. Not know that she did.

There are several studies that MM would have had done on admission that would have demonstrated that she had a big PE. The actual clot that produced her collapse is likely not detectable this long after. The coroner may feel that they have enough information to make a determination about her death, without doing an autopsy.

Some examples of diagnostic studies for PE:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410881_5

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/361131-overview

CT pulmonary angiogram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventilation/perfusion_scan

Pulmonary embolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

There are several studies that MM would have had done on admission that would have demonstrated that she had a big PE. The actual clot that produced her collapse is likely not detectable this long after. The coroner may feel that they have enough information to make a determination about her death, without doing an autopsy.

Some examples of diagnostic studies for PE:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410881_5

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/361131-overview

CT pulmonary angiogram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventilation/perfusion_scan

Pulmonary embolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me, If you are pulling the plug on someone cause of death should be determined.

 

[faw720]

Yea, they are just guessing. They don't know why she died.
My understanding is that Jahi McMath has to return to the coroner for an autopsy when her heart stops.
Why wouldn't the same be required here?

I may be wrong but I think the rules vary by state. It is my understanding, that in Texas, a Justice of the Peace calls for an autopsy in cases of unattended violent death or where a crime is suspected. Neither of those situations applied to Marlise. In this particular case, I think elected officials just want it to fade from everyone's memory.

JMO

 

[Steft50]

I may be wrong but I think the rules vary by state. It is my understanding, that in Texas, a Justice of the Peace calls for an autopsy in cases of unattended violent death or where a crime is suspected. Neither of those situations applied to Marlise. In this particular case, I think elected officials just want it to fade from everyone's memory.

JMO

My Mom passed in Texas unattended (not in hospital) but due to her long term illness - stage 4/end stage COPD the officials allowed the family to make the determination on an autopsy.

 

[Elainera]

Just saw the news. RIP Marlise and your baby! My condolences to Erick and the family.

 

[Elley Mae]

I was sorry to hear that there was going to be a problem with the fetus (deformed limbs) and such but I am glad the judge ruled the way he did and the hospital agreed and didn't appeal. I would be interested in hearing what did happen to Marlise that night, and what exactly was wrong with the fetus. I am glad also that Erick's son is young enough to not know what is going on other then the little guy is probably still missing his mom.

 

[K_Z]

To me, If you are pulling the plug on someone cause of death should be determined.

Doctors at JPS didn't just stare at her and wring their hands for the first 2 days after she was admitted.

There is a great deal of information about how and why she died in her chart. Just because we don't have access to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Nor does it mean that the reporters and journalists are correct when they say "doctors think she died of a pulmonary embolism". Reporters write news articles for a 6th grade reading ability. They generalize a lot of scientific and medical information.

I think if EM wanted an autopsy, he can arrange for one. If the coroner/ ME doesn't think it's necessary, then they are comfortable with the information they already have.

The fetus is horribly deformed. That much we know. They have lots of info in the chart on the fetus that we don't have, also, in addition to any existing prenatal records or tests/ US from before MM collapsed. I'm fine with further post mortem exam if the coroner thinks it's necessary, or if EM wants it. Otherwise, there is no purpose to be served for mandating an autopsy of the fetus. This was an experiment done without any other protocols, consent, review, or consensus, so why should we mandate that the fetus be subjected NOW to autopsy?

So we can all see what the effects of the experiment was? Josef Mengele style?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele#Human_experimentation

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Doctors at JPS didn't just stare at her and wring their hands for the first 2 days after she was admitted.

There is a great deal of information about how and why she died in her chart. Just because we don't have access to it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Nor does it mean that the reporters and journalists are correct when they say "doctors think she died of a pulmonary embolism". Reporters write news articles for a 6th grade reading ability. They generalize a lot of scientific and medical information.

I think if EM wanted an autopsy, he can arrange for one. If the coroner/ ME doesn't think it's necessary, then they are comfortable with the information they already have.

The fetus is horribly deformed. That much we know. They have lots of info in the chart on the fetus that we don't have, also, in addition to any existing prenatal records or tests/ US from before MM collapsed. I'm fine with further post mortem exam if the coroner thinks it's necessary, or if EM wants it. Otherwise, there is no purpose to be served for mandating an autopsy of the fetus. This was an experiment done without any other protocols, consent, review, or consensus, so why should we mandate that the fetus be subjected NOW to autopsy?

So we can all see what the effects of the experiment was? Josef Mengele style?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele#Human_experimentation

We are all wanting the best for the family. I believe that after all this time the cause of death should be known. That is my opinion. It is just that. An opinion.

I would like to know what horribly deformed is? SO far I heard that the child may have some limb issues and water on the brain.
I have seen children that have some incredible limb deformities become amazing people.
The fact is they can not know unless they do an autopsy on that baby what was really wrong with him and why.

 

[faw720]

Just watched the local news of WFAA. The protestors still came out this afternoon already knowing that Marlise had been taken off life support.

Any comments I have on that would get me kicked off the forum so I'll just keep my mouth shut.

 

[Karmady]

We are all wanting the best for the family. I believe that after all this time the cause of death should be known. That is my opinion. It is just that. An opinion.

I would like to know what horribly deformed is? SO far I heard that the child may have some limb issues and water on the brain.
I have seen children that have some incredible limb deformities become amazing people.
The fact is they can not know unless they do an autopsy on that baby what was really wrong with him and why.

Autopsies could provide very useful information for the future, as well, imo. The ME may not feel it's necessary and the family may be opposed to it. And that's certainly their right (at least it appears to be). But it would be useful, imo, for the docs to have as much information as possible about, if nothing else, whether the baby's condition was attributable, in whole or in part, to the mother's condition. I can imagine surviving family members in the future having their decisions informed based on the limited information provided in this case. They might make different decisions based on the cause of the baby's condition here. jmo

 

[K_Z]

We are all wanting the best for the family. I believe that after all this time the cause of death should be known. That is my opinion. It is just that. An opinion.

I would like to know what horribly deformed is? SO far I heard that the child may have some limb issues and water on the brain.
I have seen children that have some incredible limb deformities become amazing people.
The fact is they can not know unless they do an autopsy on that baby what was really wrong with him and why.

BBM.

I sincerely ask this with respect. Why?

Why would you "like to know what horribly deformed is", for THIS fetus? Why is it not enough to know that it IS horribly deformed, and was not viable, and gestating in a brain dead woman? I am very puzzled by this, and suspect/ hope that voyeurism or exploitation isn't the motivation.

Is it so that the next time a 14 week pregnant woman dies from a sustained hypoxic/ anoxic episode, we will all know "something" to help science and medicine bring the baby to term in the brain dead mother? IDK what other motivation there could be?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Autopsy's could provide very useful information for the future, as well, imo. The ME may not feel it's necessary and the family may be opposed to it. And that's certainly their right (at least it appears to be). But it would be useful, imo, for the docs to have as much information as possible about, if nothing else, whether the baby's condition was attributable, in whole or in part, to the mother's condition. I can imagine surviving family members in the future having their decisions informed based on the limited information provided in this case. They might make different decisions based on the cause of the baby's condition here. jmo

AS a family member I would want a full autopsy to see if this was something genetic or incidental. If the baby had defects before the event I would want to know what they were and their source. I think that the autopsy only serves to help.

BBM.

I sincerely ask this with respect. Why?

Why would you "like to know what horribly deformed is", for THIS fetus? Why is it not enough to know that it IS horribly deformed, and was not viable, and gestating in a brain dead woman? I am very puzzled by this, and suspect/ hope that voyeurism or exploitation isn't the motivation.

Is it so that the next time a 14 week pregnant woman dies from a sustained hypoxic/ anoxic episode, we will all know "something" to help science and medicine bring the baby to term in the brain dead mother? IDK what other motivation there could be?

You said the child was horribly deformed. I am asking what that is and how you know that. Were there issues? Yes I am seeing there may have been issues but they will not know how or why unless they do the autopsy possibly protecting others in the family from the same fate.

 

[Elainera]

I'm not an extreme Pro Life person. I have had an abortion myself, I was grateful for it at the time.

But in this case, I feel a baby has been killed that should have been given a chance. It was a 5 months old fetus, it was alive. Yes it had severe issues but it was alive. I feel it should not have been 'aborted', for lack of a better word here.

I know this opinion isn't popular here, and despite my feelings I'm happy for Erick because I can see his grief and relief and his love for his departed wife. I'm happy he now gets to do what he so desperately wanted, lay her to rest.

But for the baby I'm sad. I can't help it. I don't want to think about how it must have struggled when the oxygen suddenly stopped coming, for a second time at that. Horrible. I hope they gave her some powerful sedation first before ending the life support.

 

[jjenny]

I'm not an extreme Pro Life person. I have had an abortion myself, I was grateful for it at the time.

But in this case, I feel a baby has been killed that should have been given a chance. It was a 5 months old fetus, it was alive. Yes it had severe issues but it was alive. I feel it should not have been 'aborted', for lack of a better word here.

I know this opinion isn't popular here, and despite my feelings I'm happy for Erick because I can see his grief and relief and his love for his departed wife. I'm happy he now gets to do what he so desperately wanted, lay her to rest.

But for the baby I'm sad. I can't help it. I don't want to think about how it must have struggled when the oxygen suddenly stopped coming, for a second time at that. Horrible. I hope they gave her some powerful sedation first before ending the life support.

I am sad too. But reportedly the fetus had severe abnromalities, and with father not wanting to continue with the pregnancy, and mother dead, the odds were against it. If it were normally developing, it would be another story.

 

[K_Z]

I'm sad, too.

I'm much, much more sad for EM losing his wife, and their healthy toddler losing his mom for his WHOLE life, than I am for the loss of the fetus MM was carrying. I am far more sad for the real, living people who have a tremendous loss, than for the fetus that wasn't born. I wish that fetus had been able to be brought into the world healthy, or even "sort of " healthy. But I firmly believe that the fetus was not viable at 14 weeks, and that the unregulated experiment to bring a 14 week fetus to term was unwise, immoral, and unethical. The fetus was not viable. It is tremendously sad. If the fetus had been 26-28 weeks or more, I would feel much differently. 14 weeks was a sick experiment, and I'm glad it's over. We should not experiment on fetuses without engaging in the scientific method.

Why is it that there is such resistance to applying the consensus model of scientific method and investigation to fetal gestation by those who are so adamantly pro-life/ pro- fetus? I would think that the pro life agenda would want very much to engage in regulated fetal experimentation, to further their agenda? So that it can be determined just exactly the best way to gestate a fetus in a brain dead mother?

I am not being snarky. Why would this group with a fetal rights agenda want to avoid that type of validated, scientific, systematic study? If it is okay to make up the rules as you go with real people who have no say in the matter, why not invite volunteers, provide informed consent, establish institutes of study and research, etc?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm sad, too.

I'm much, much more sad for EM losing his wife, and their healthy toddler losing his mom for his WHOLE life, than I am for the loss of the fetus MM was carrying. I am far more sad for the real, living people who have a tremendous loss, than for the fetus that wasn't born. I wish that fetus had been able to be brought into the world healthy, or even "sort of " healthy. But I firmly believe that the fetus was not viable at 14 weeks, and that the unregulated experiment to bring a 14 week fetus to term was unwise, immoral, and unethical. The fetus was not viable. It is tremendously sad. If the fetus had been 26-28 weeks or more, I would feel much differently. 14 weeks was a sick experiment, and I'm glad it's over. We should not experiment on fetuses without engaging in the scientific method.

Why is it that there is such resistance to applying the consensus model of scientific method and investigation to fetal gestation by those who are so adamantly pro-life/ pro- fetus? I would think that the pro life agenda would want very much to engage in regulated fetal experimentation, to further their agenda? So that it can be determined just exactly the best way to gestate a fetus in a brain dead mother?

I am not being snarky. Why would this group with a fetal rights agenda want to avoid that type of validated, scientific, systematic study? If it is okay to make up the rules as you go with real people who have no say in the matter, why not invite volunteers, provide informed consent, establish institutes of study and research, etc?

Sorry I find that insensitive. While you feel that way, For many women and fathers that lose their babies in utero the pain is no less than if that child was already living and breathing. It is a massive loss.

That child was wanted, probably celebrated with anticipation of being born. I can not mourn that child any less.

 

[jjenny]

AS a family member I would want a full autopsy to see if this was something genetic or incidental. If the baby had defects before the event I would want to know what they were and their source. I think that the autopsy only serves to help.



You said the child was horribly deformed. I am asking what that is and how you know that. Were there issues? Yes I am seeing there may have been issues but they will not know how or why unless they do the autopsy possibly protecting others in the family from the same fate.

If they didn't do an autopsy we will never know. Reportedly it was very abnormal but without an atopsy it's unclear just how abnormal it was.