TX - Sandra Bland, 28, found dead in jail cell, Waller County, 13 July 2015 #2

[Montjoy]

Trouper Encinia's grades
[...]
I gave him a C on 10, because at least he was doing his research to figure out what to charge her with.

Come on, he does deserve at least a D- for initiative, insofar as nobody told him to pull Sandra over or work so heroically to find a way to justify his arrest.

Are there no 'G' grades?

 

[katydid23]

Is it now provocative to assert your rights?

It can be if it is just done to cop an attitude. Is it really that important to keep your ciggie lit at all times? Is that a civil right that must be protected?

 

[KaaBoom]

Tasers are not for using on people who get stopped for a minor traffic violation, get ordered to put their cigarette out, then ordered to leave their vehicle when they ask why they can't smoke in their own car.

And if that's what they are being used for then tasers should be taken off police officers. I hate to quote Spiderman, of all people, but with power comes responsibility. A taser gives you an awful lot of power so if its being used so casually it should be removed from the police's armoury.

Exactly, tasers are supposed to be an alternative to lethal force. Instead of shooting suspects they can taser them. But instead of that cops use it for pain compliance for minor issues.

 

[Montjoy]

It can be if it is just done to cop an attitude. Is it really that important to keep your ciggie lit at all times? Is that a civil right that must be protected?

Is that officer, or are you, the authority to determine which civil rights are unworthy of protection?

 

[katydid23]

Well put. Bad cops like this make it harder for the good cops (and I will assume that the poster's son is one of them) to do their jobs safely. LE should be front and center in wanting to get rid of bad apples like this, rather than making weak excuses for him.

By the same token, I'd imagine that bad cops and their defenders would be defending this officer --and no, I'm not pointing any fingers here.

Nice try, but I already said my son was upset when he saw the tape. He thought the rookie lost his temper for no valid reason.

But he did understand why he might have wanted the cig put out. And he thought she was being silly when she made such a big deal out of the request.

 

[Cappuccino]

It can be if it is just done to cop an attitude. Is it really that important to keep your ciggie lit at all times? Is that a civil right that must be protected?

Questioning an order from a police officer that you aren't legally obliged to obey is indeed a civil right that needs to be protected. Not being threatened that you will be lit up in response is another.

<modsnip>

 

[KaaBoom]

YES, I think she was trying to provoke him.

I'm pretty sure it was him who was trying to provoke her.

 

[katydid23]

Is that officer, or are you, the authority to determine which civil rights are unworthy of protection?

Oh, so it is her civil right to keep her ciggie lit at all times? LOL that is just silly. Was she saying NO because she was concerned with protecting the rights of others to never have to put theirs out, even if asked politely?

 

[katydid23]

I'm pretty sure it was him who was trying to provoke her.

well, since you have never met a cop in the past 30 years that was not a horrible person, I would not expect any thing different from your POV.

 

[katydid23]

Questioning an order from a police officer that you aren't legally obliged to obey is indeed a civil right that needs to be protected. Not being threatened that you will be lit up in response is another.

This guy isn't your son, (I hope!), so maybe you should stop making excuses for him.

Is it an order if a cop says 'PLease, would you mind putting out your cig?' Is that an ORDER?

 

[Cappuccino]

Exactly, tasers are supposed to be an alternative to lethal force. Instead of shooting suspects they can taser them. But instead of that cops use it for pain compliance for minor issues.

The police in my country aren't allowed to carry tasers or guns on routine business, (although they do have access to them if they're faced with a riot or an armed robbery or the like). Coincidentally, or not, the police in my country are usually awful polite to the public on routine traffic stops.

 

[Cappuccino]

Is it an order if a cop says 'PLease, would you mind putting out your cig?' Is that an ORDER?

Then why did he react so badly when she didn't comply?

 

[KaaBoom]

If LE commands you to get out of your car, can you demand a call to an attorney and remain in your car?

This whole situation is absurd

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you. Do you understand the rights I have just read to you? With these rights in mind, do you wish to speak to me?”

What Are Your Miranda Rights?

 

[katydid23]

Then why did he react so badly when she didn't comply?

Her answer was rude and condescending.

 

[bluesneakers]

I'm pretty sure it was him who was trying to provoke her.

I agree.

 

[bluesneakers]

Her answer was rude and condescending.

And he lost control.

 

[Montjoy]

The police in my country aren't allowed to carry tasers or guns on routine business, (although they do have access to them if they're faced with a riot or an armed robbery or the like). Coincidentally, or not, the police in my country are usually awful polite to the public on routine traffic stops.

...and I'm going to guess that per capita, the police (Garda?) where you live are less likely to kill or be killed in the line of duty.

 

[Cappuccino]

Her answer was rude and condescending.

So what? His tone towards her was rude and condescending to begin with, and so was his quasi request/command to put out her own cigarette in her own car.

If it wasn't an order to put out the cigarette, then he should have taken no for an answer.

 

[Montjoy]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I work in some isolated areas in which prisoners need to use commercial flights to go to court or prison, and so I often see people being escorted on flights by the RCMP. The constables *always* let those in custody smoke, and smoke as much as they want, before their flights, as it makes them more docile. Whether you like smoking or not, under the circumstances it is the humane thing to do. But from a LE perspective, it is also the sane and effective thing to do.

Any LEO in a traffic stop should be able to put his/her prejudices aside and allow someone to smoke in their own car to deescalate the risk of the situation. It lets the persons being detained/arrested think that they have some control over some part of their lives, and it keeps them from getting antsy. Anyone with even the tiniest sliver of training should know this, and should know that depriving a smoker unnecessarily is something done only to assert authority and/or bully. That's why POW camps have universally allowed smoking, to the point at which cigarettes were so plentiful that they were used as currency.

 

[Cappuccino]

...and I'm going to guess that per capita, the police (Garda?) where you live are less likely to kill or be killed in the line of duty.

In this day and age its a very very rare occurrence for a member of the Garda Síochana to kill or be killed in the line of duty. I can't even remember the last time either happened.

However, Katydid might fairly retort that that's not a fair comparison because Ireland has such strict gun control in this day and age. She might be more interested to know that the Irish police were traditionally armed and quite trigger happy up until the government forcibly disarmed them in the middle of a viscious civil war where they were being shot at by both sides.

They survived, and they're all the better for it.