TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[airportwoman]

On a previous thread some teachers were discussing feeling afraid of handling a firearm. I, too, work in the public school system. I qualified for a concealed handgun license. I am proficient shooting a handgun, shotgun, and rifle. Mainly I kill feral hogs that tear everything up. That said, I have concerns about being locked and loaded in the classroom. My concern would be keeping the gun in a secure enough location that students would not be able to get their hands on it. I feel the chances of a student getting the gun could be greater than the chances of encountering a shooter. Keep in mind that a huge number of the school shootings are performed by students inside a school that they are supposed to be in. If you have the gun secure enough that students cannot get to it, would you be able to get the fun in time for it to help you?

And a lot of them are actually suicides. Imagine a student finding a gun and shooting themselves in front of the class, or any number of other unpleasant scenarios.

<modsnip>

 

[Seattle1]

Texas school shooting: 10-year-old survivor recalls hearing shots and screams as gunman opened fire​

Gemma escaped through her classroom window. Her best friend died in the classroom next door.

 

[airportwoman]

Dang. The police response was an epic fail !!! Heads will roll.

I'm going to respectfully disagree, so far. Maybe they were wanting to make sure there weren't accomplices, or explosives, or any number of other things that could potentially lead to an increased casualty count if they did go in too soon?

 

[Seattle1]

Students were in constant contact with 911 dispatchers in Uvalde​

 

[Seattle1]

Student who survived Texas shooting recalls moments of terror​

Best friends Samuel & Noah survived -- Noah was shot in the back and is still hospitalized.

 

[Sarahlou]

The training is clear: Time is of the essence. The “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker”

“A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field”

This is what I thought it must be otherwise what's the point if they aren't actually going to help save people?

There was a big failure here.

 

[OneLove]

Carrying concealed on your person would be a good solution. JMO.

I taught 6-9th graders & in several programs for at risk teenagers and 1st offenders. Most of them could have overtaken me and had a field day with my loaded gun. Teachers know that guns in the classroom endanger them all more than protect them. <modsnip>

 

[Lilibet]

The training is clear: Time is of the essence. The “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker”

“A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field”

I posted this at the very end of the last thread, about my husband, who taught for 30 years (grades 2, 4-6) and never has touched a gun in the 58 years I have known him…

”He too would have left teaching if carrying a gun had been required. And yet, he has said many times that he would willingly put himself between a gunman and his kids to protect them. That’s who he is and I know he would do exactly that without a second thought.”

So if an unarmed teacher would “place the lives of the innocent above their own safety,” surely a trained first responder should do so automatically. My husband viewed himself as his students’ protector, as do most teachers I’ve known.

I don’t want to criticize the actions of the first responders until the investigation is complete. BUT, at this point I see more courage displayed by the murdered teachers and by the students who called 911 repeatedly than by highly trained LE. And that makes me sad and proud at the same time.
JMO

 

[Simply Southern]

NYTimes reporter's tweet thread is worth a read:

Mike Baker
@ByMikeBaker

I have spent the past few days researching the training of Uvalde officers, including the tactics they were expected to use to halt school shooters. The documents are jarring. Here’s a thread of our findings so far. 1/9


6:15 PM · May 27, 2022·T

An enlightening, worthy read. The officers were trained, active shooter enactment 2 months ago,training states a "SINGLE officer" ALONE may need to react immediately.

No words....

 

[Simply Southern]

Carrying concealed on your person would be a good solution. JMO.

I agree, however , school systems contract with LE agencies to provide protection. They leave it upto the agency to select the officers. My schools contract is two paragraphs. It list the fee, no specific requirements, or training. They sign, pay and pretend we are protecting our kids.

Teachers shouldn't have to carry guns, we protect federal, state and local officials, judges, criminals on trial and pretend RSO are protecting our kids.

Moo...

 

[Dotta]

Federal agents DEFIED Uvalde police chief's order not to enter school

Members of an elite tactical border patrol unit arrived at Robb Elementary School at around midday, but were told by the chief of the school district police to not enter the school.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[osu]

‘We Felt Like Cowards': A Police Officer Talks About the Decision to Delay Officer Response to Uvalde Shooting

May 27, 2022 09:17 PM

[…]

For more than an hour, police officers stood outside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, waiting for the signal to burst into a classroom to neutralize a gunman who had opened fire at the school.

[…]

Pete Arredondo, the chief of police for the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District, stopped at least 19 officers from breaking into the school as the gunman opened fire. According to Steven McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, Arredondo believed that the shooter had barricaded himself in an empty classroom, and that no children were under an active threat.

[…]

But not all officers agreed with Arredondo's decision. One of the officers who was standing outside the school says that he and his colleagues discussed whether to go into the school anyway.

There was almost a mutiny," the officer tells PEOPLE. "We were like, 'There's a f---ing gunman in the school, we hear gunshots, and we're just going to stand here with our thumbs up our asses?' We wanted to go in and save lives. It was the most frustrating situation of my entire career."

"We felt like cowards," the officer continues. "It felt cowardly to stand off and let this punk, this kid, this 18-year-old just go in and do whatever he wanted to do. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of cussing, a lot of people who were saying that we should just say f--- it and go in, but then what? We needed to have a plan, and the commander didn't have a plan."

The officer, who has served for more than a decade, wondered why they wouldn't confront a suspect who was barricaded in an empty classroom.

[…]

"Even if he had barricaded himself in, he had already shot at people," the officer says, "so why weren't we in there doing what we should've done? I remember thinking 'this is wrong.' But there was nothing I could do."

Now, as the police response comes under scrutiny, the officer worries about the public perception of him and his colleagues.

"It sucks that we look like we were cowards, because we weren't cowards," he says. "But that's nothing compared to the fact that little kids died and maybe we could've done something to save them. I wish we had known what to do. I wish someone had told us what to do."

[…]

'We Felt Like Cowards': A Police Officer Talks About the Decision to Delay Officer Response to Uvalde Shooting

 

[IceIce9]

An enlightening, worthy read. The officers were trained, active shooter enactment 2 months ago,training states a "SINGLE officer" ALONE may need to react immediately.

No words....

With the type of weapon the shooter had the officers were seriously outgunned. And he was wearing body armor.

Scenario: A SINGLE officer reacts immediately, enters the building, and is shot and killed.

Next officer enters the building, and is shot and killed.

Now you have two officers added to the death toll, the students have not been rescued, the gunman is still shooting.

Some seem to think that if an officer ran in the shooter would have been killed and the incident would have been over, but that is not necessarily the case.

Once the gunman barricaded himself in a room with the children the situation changed from active shooter to a hostage situation.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

With the type of weapon the shooter had the officers were seriously outgunned. And he was wearing body armor.

Scenario: A SINGLE officer reacts immediately, enters the building, and is shot and killed.

Next officer enters the building, and is shot and killed.

Now you have two officers added to the death toll, the students have not been rescued, the gunman is still shooting.

Some seem to think that if an officer ran in the shooter would have been killed and the incident would have been over, but that is not necessarily the case.

Once the gunman barricaded himself in a room with the children the situation changed from active shooter to a hostage situation.

MOO

Very true. Yet the Texas Dept of Safety guidelines that @Seattle1 shared in a post above provided the trained protocol for exactly the scenarios described.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1530358760798990336

https://twitter.com/x/status/1530360124149157889

 

[IceIce9]

Very true. Yet the Texas Dept of Safety guidelines that @Seattle1 shared in a post above provided the trained protocol for exactly the scenarios described.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1530358760798990336

https://twitter.com/x/status/1530360124149157889

What are the guidelines when the situation changes from active shooter to hostage situation?

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but looking back would this tragedy have occurred if a teacher hadn’t left a door propped open? Or if the SRO had been at his post?

Moving forward I hope future tragedies can be prevented from the mistakes made in Uvalde.
MOO

 

[Elley Mae]

Compare the weapon that the shooter had with the weapons the police had. Plus the fact that he was wearing body armor.

Not quite body armor.

…

Ramos was fatally shot by law enforcement officers at the scene, Gov. Greg Abbott (R) said. Lt. Christopher Olivarez, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said the gunman wore a vest used to store extra magazines — often used by tactical police units — without the armor plates that law enforcement officers typically wear.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/25/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-gunman/

 

[steeltowngirl]

What are the guidelines when the situation changes from active shooter to hostage situation?

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but looking back would this tragedy have occurred if a teacher hadn’t left a door propped open? Or if the SRO had been at his post?

Moving forward I hope future tragedies can be prevented from the mistakes made in Uvalde.
MOO

Approach, engage, and confront are the theme of the guidelines.

I agree that the door propped open was the catalyst for the breach. What if he had used a vehicle to ram a wall and enter?

 

[steeltowngirl]

(NewsNation) — Responding officers in Uvalde, Texas, believed a gunman inside Robb Elementary School had barricaded himself inside a classroom and they mistakenly changed their approach to the active shooter incident.

“When there’s an active shooter, the rules change,” said Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steven McCraw. “It’s no longer a barricaded subject. You don’t have time. You don’t worry about perimeters.”

In an active shooter situation, NewsNation learned, law enforcement should try to eliminate the shooter as soon as possible. But the approach is much different in a barricaded subject or hostage situation.

Instead, officers are advised not to rush into a room while a hostage or barricade scenario is taking place, according to Pete Blair, the executive director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT) at Texas State University.

Police waited more than 40 minutes during shooter response
…“They could create a situation where the attacker starts shooting hostages,” Blair said. “So if the attacker is not killing people, the default is to kind of try to negotiate at the door and stall for time to get the SWAT team there to come in and deal with the situation.”

Officers believed Uvalde gunman was barricaded, not actively shooting

Responding officers in Uvalde, Texas, believed a gunman inside Robb Elementary School had barricaded himself inside a classroom and they mistakenly changed their approach to the active shooter inci…

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[white rabbit]

"run to the gun" - joey jones, fox news. caveat - he said this speaking as ex-military. he didn't excuse LE, but said they aren't necessarily trained the same way.

adam lanza shot his way into sandy hook. flip your thinking - perhaps if the teacher hadn't unwittingly propped the door there would've been even more fatalities.

of all the pressers/research/fact-finding, not one "official" has followed the money. some of you believe that working part time at a wendy's paid for thousands in weapons and ammo. i will agree to disagree.

i have three teenage boys. i blame the parents. kids who are ignored commit crimes. period. my unsolicited advice? it's so damn simple - raise your children. keep an eye on their friends. and if they don't have any? that's a problem.

see you on the unfortunate next case...

 

[Dotta]

About "Yubo"

Uvalde gunman threatened rapes and school shootings on social app Yubo

The Texas school shooter made two FaceTime calls - one of them while topless - with a German girl he met on social media, who was told of his warped plot to murder.

www.dailymail.co.uk