UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[JTT]

That would indicate the baby was definitely not born when CM said she was ?

So whose was the placenta?

 

[porkypies]

I agree with you on the 'trashed cottage'. it looks messy and I would have cleaned that up, but it's not trashed. The owners have said it was their first time renting it out too, so that would be the first time they had seen anyone but thereselves using the cottage.
I think they left in a hurry and/or they really feel that it was clean because they are unconcerned with mess.

I agree, not that they left in a hurry necessarily, but that this was the way they naturally lived, clean or dirty, negligent or responsible, may not have entered into it.
I think they treated their baby in the same way they treated the cottage.

 

[Waffle]

And, if we're being honest, the individuals in authority are often a bit scared of travellers.

May be different now but a few years ago in one trust I worked for we were discouraged by supervisors from raising any concerns (unless very extreme and obvious) regarding traveller parents in the perinatal period, as it could be deemed racist or discriminatory to their culture. I don't know if this attitude was common in othet areas, but it really did make you fear getting disciplined for raising anything. I wonder if CM had met anyone who mentioned something along those lines and she thought she would slip through the cracks of SS by pretending to be a traveller

 

[Zuleika]

So whose was the placenta?

I did use a question mark ?
The question is why would Dale Gosling say there was mucus and blood on the babie's head ?

 

[porkypies]

I did use a question mark ?
The question is why would Dale Gosling say there was mucus and blood on the babie's head ?

Perhaps because that's what he saw? and because it would have been more appropriate for their to be a hat on the baby's head given the circumstances?

 

[Zuleika]

But surely CM would have wiped her babie's head during the space of time between the birth and DG speaking with them in Harwich ?

 

[JennieM]

But surely CM would have wiped her babie's head during the space of time between the birth and DG speaking with them in Harwich ?

Perhaps she didn’t wipe it properly or completely?

 

[Alyce]

Aren't the optics of her not appearing in court and him being there that HE is the one who is on trial?

And she isn't?

subtle but interesting image isnt it

plus the line about there being a link available if she wants to join…makes her sound like a guest …rather than a person on trial

just editing to add….
CM is also being referred to as the second defendant.
I have never heard this term used in any other multiple defendant trial

 

[Rolypolyoly]

May be different now but a few years ago in one trust I worked for we were discouraged by supervisors from raising any concerns (unless very extreme and obvious) regarding traveller parents in the perinatal period, as it could be deemed racist or discriminatory to their culture. I don't know if this attitude was common in othet areas, but it really did make you fear getting disciplined for raising anything. I wonder if CM had met anyone who mentioned something along those lines and she thought she would slip through the cracks of SS by pretending to be a traveller

I'd say it's across the board. Certainly in my local primary school they basically make their own rules, the previous headmaster basically asked for their permission to discipline their kids, the current one is slightly better but they are still basically untouchable, and the police won't go to their site for anything less than murder!.
My local evri driver makes a mint with 2 rounds because he is the only one that will deliver there!.

I have a friend from childhood who lives there and I recently gave her a lift home, I've not been down there in over 20 years and when I drove in literally everyone came out of their trailers to see who the intruder was, its very intimidating if you are an outsider.
I spent plenty of time there as a teen, but the majority of the people there are different now, such is the nature of their culture, but my friend has always lived there. The others moved away.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

But surely CM would have wiped her babie's head during the space of time between the birth and DG speaking with them in Harwich ?

Was Harwich the same day as the car fire? 5th Jan?

 

[Alyce]

Was Harwich the same day as the car fire? 5th Jan?

they arrived in Harwich in the early hours of Friday January 6

 

[porkypies]

But surely CM would have wiped her babie's head during the space of time between the birth and DG speaking with them in Harwich ?

Not necessarily, that does not seem to be their style, they appear to have different priorities.

 

[Earthwindfire]

But surely CM would have wiped her babie's head during the space of time between the birth and DG speaking with them in Harwich ?

I presume by mucus he means Vernix. It is discouraged from cleaning it off the baby as it is good for them. This was in my births in 2016, 2018 and 2020.

 

[Cherwell]

We do know that CM and MG had voluntarily relinquished a previous child though.
"The couple had also previously abandoned another baby in hospital shortly after Marten gave birth, jurors were told."

Constance Marten told police baby died when she fell asleep with her

I'd like to know more detail about this. Was this the baby who was taken straight into care? If Constance knew that this was going to happen, perhaps she didn't see any point in staying. Or was the baby taken into care because she left?

 

[rightsaidfred]

May be different now but a few years ago in one trust I worked for we were discouraged by supervisors from raising any concerns (unless very extreme and obvious) regarding traveller parents in the perinatal period, as it could be deemed racist or discriminatory to their culture. I don't know if this attitude was common in othet areas, but it really did make you fear getting disciplined for raising anything. I wonder if CM had met anyone who mentioned something along those lines and she thought she would slip through the cracks of SS by pretending to be a traveller

That's absolutely horrific - I'm sure there are traveller children in real need, neglected by both their parents and the state.

Might MG have been suffering from gangrene in his feet?

That might explain the horrible smell attested to while it seems Victoria was still alive, and also the plastic bags on his feet.

^ Complete and utter speculation.

Trench Foot - which starts when feet are left wet and cold for a long time - would also explain both the smell of decay and the bags over the feet, if his shoes had been leaking.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

they arrived in Harwich in the early hours of Friday January 6

Thanks Alyce. So it's seeming increasingly likely to me that CM gave birth in the car some time between the 28th Dec and the 5th of Jan, which would also explain the nasty smell in the hotel room. Lochia isn't pleasant and if she hadn't had a chance to bathe since the birth, and not much chance at hygiene with pad changes and such, it would be pretty ripe IMO.

 

[Zuleika]

I presume by mucus he means Vernix. It is discouraged from cleaning it off the baby as it is good for them. This was in my births in 2016, 2018 and 2020.

Thank you for that which I wasn't aware of .

 

[Skigh]

That's absolutely horrific - I'm sure there are traveller children in real need, neglected by both their parents and the state.


Trench Foot - which starts when feet are left wet and cold for a long time - would also explain both the smell of decay and the bags over the feet, if his shoes had been leaking.

If he had had a serious condition affecting his feet,I would have thought he would have been admitted to hospital immediately after his arrest.

 

[Zuleika]

I'd like to know more detail about this. Was this the baby who was taken straight into care? If Constance knew that this was going to happen, perhaps she didn't see any point in staying. Or was the baby taken into care because she left?

Somewhere it's been said she went back but they wouldn't let her back in because she had refused a Covid jab .

 

[Nikynoo]

I think in relation to SS, they wouldn’t be asking if he was guilty or not guilty, it would be presented factually, more similarly to “Our procedure is to put support in place for any family where a family member has been charged and found guilty of sexual offences.” They’d be likely to refocus the conversation on the children and away from specifics of whether anyone is or is not guilty.

I think if he would not admit to it, it would be a concern, but there would tend to be lots of other concerns that would build to a big picture of children being unsafe. SS would generally work on trying to get a parent to develop emotionally to a point where they can self-assess more accurately. This would be done in multiple ways including directly 1:1 with a social worker and in parenting classes. Social workers in child protection tend to be clear with the parents that they are the child’s social worker, so as much as they can support the parent to work through things, they make decisions and act on the best interests of the child. If the parents refuse to talk things through, blame children for behaviour but fail to put the given techniques into place, don’t seek any help for themselves that they’ve been asked to seek, regularly miss meetings and/or contact sessions, then those are failure to engage. These situations tend to be multifaceted rather than focusing on a single point. If it’s helpful, the NSPCC website has a section on reviews that have happened after serious incidents occur (eg. A child’s death or a failure to recognise neglect for several years) and they tend to list lots of complex issues rather than a single one.

I have a question and perhaps someone here would know the answer?

If MG had committed the crimes in the UK, bearing in mind that he was 14 at the time, would his record be sealed? Would he still need to sign the Register and would SS know that he had committed the crime?