UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[OliverK]

You can do all that on one phone though and it's simple enough to buy a pay as you go sim and be completely untraceable. It's not like they were running some criminal empire and burning or swallowing sim cards after a single use.

30 phones is just bizarre for two people who just seemed to be moving from one place to another to hide from social services. Way past overkill!

Where will you buy the PAYG SIM that's off-camera, having not been caught on 50 cameras on your way to the point of purchase? And how to stop it communicating the IMEI of the phone as soon as it connects to the network, which will also be linked to any future SIMs you put in the phone? Phones are no more secure here if you want to be totally untraceable than they are in Urumqi. Or at least it's not simple to be completely untraceable.

 

[rightsaidfred]

I looked up "recovery Bible" as I thought recovery = rehab but it's just the name of the bible translation.

I was surprised they had one with the alleged woo beliefs

I also had the same thought about the Bible.

I think CM certainly holds Christian beliefs. She went to an evangelical course in London when she was ~18 (Alpha Course? That's the most well known) and that's where she learned about TB Joshua, a self styled Christian prophet. You don't tend to go to Nigeria to join a church unless you believe in God.

It's not uncommon for prisoners to find God, especially a young black man in the deep South.

Here's a thought - based on nothing, just speculation. We've always been unclear on how they met, only that they happened to live in the same area. Could they have both attended a local church and met there?

Does make you wonder how a young couple could actually damage a ceiling in their previous property (what were the keeping in the building, how were the keeping those things etc)

It may, or may not, have been their fault. When I was a student, the landlord ignored the damp and eventually the kitchen floor partially collapsed. A plumbing issue could have caused it. They could also have let a bath tub overflow or done something utterly absurd.

But the poor condition of a rented house isn't always the tenant's fault.

The smoke damage was almost certainly their fault though!

You have to top that phone up with £10 to activate. Can you do that by buying a voucher with cash or does it have to be done by card?

Let's not overanalyse exactly which model and which retailer they might have bought it from... the point is that a basic smartphone can now be obtained at a surprisingly cheap rate, so cheap that 30 of them is plausibly affordable

But they were PAYG phones so probably purchasable with cash.

Second hand retailers like CEX are another option.

 

[OliverK]

I also had the same thought about the Bible.

I think CM certainly holds Christian beliefs. She went to an evangelical course in London when she was ~18 (Alpha Course? That's the most well known) and that's where she learned about TB Joshua, a self styled Christian prophet. You don't tend to go to Nigeria to join a church unless you believe in God.

It's not uncommon for prisoners to find God, especially a young black man in the deep South.

Here's a thought - based on nothing, just speculation. We've always been unclear on how they met, only that they happened to live in the same area. Could they have both attended a local church and met there?



It may, or may not, have been their fault. When I was a student, the landlord ignored the damp and eventually the kitchen floor partially collapsed. A plumbing issue could have caused it. They could also have let a bath tub overflow or done something utterly absurd.

But the poor condition of a rented house isn't always the tenant's fault.

The smoke damage was almost certainly their fault though!



Let's not overanalyse exactly which model and which retailer they might have bought it from... the point is that a basic smartphone can now be obtained at a surprisingly cheap rate, so cheap that 30 of them is plausibly affordable

But they were PAYG phones so probably purchasable with cash.

Second hand retailers like CEX are another option.

Sure but can you actually use any of these phones without putting money on an account using a card?

 

[porkypies]

Chaos.

I did think that after I wrote this - yes thankfully some people are aware, curious and do notice things.
Also wasn't suggesting the witnesses are enjoying court at all, it's a deeply unsettling experience. I meant the pressure on witnesses in court can make people say all sorts.

I agree about the pressure, and I think it can make people try too hard to be 'helpful', but the barristers on both sides are not daft and can see the difference between their statements and what they then say in court - and take them to pieces if necessary.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Sure but can you actually use any of these phones without putting money on an account using a card?

Yes, you can top up PAYG phones using cash at any payzone point (mostly post offices, but also some convenience shops)

Mobile top-ups & SIM Cards | Customers | Payzone

Top up your mobile phone and SIM card services at a nearby Payzone store. Choose from popular providers like EE, Vodafone, O2, Lycamobile, and more.

www.payzone.co.uk

 

[OliverK]

The handwriting fragments at top ("You not worthy") and bottom ("the narrative of my parents") are either not in the same hand or else if by the same person they're showing a mood difference. There's tantalisingly too little script for me to say anything more than that. The descenders on both "g" and "y" differ between the two scripts, but they could just about (p=0.3) be by the same person in two different moods. A "the" or "b" at the top would have been enough for me to say more.

What on earth are the police or CPS doing - or perhaps the defence, because these would have been disclosed, but most likely the former, given the PA accreditation - putting these photos out the way they are? Have these even been given to the jury? Why does the bible go to a manslaughter charge or any of the other charges? Gotta wonder what may come next. They show an address and most of a phone number, not blacked out or pixellated by the PA or Daily Mail.

 

[JennieM]

Ah, I’ll have to look again. I thought it was the sewn-in label at the back of the collar.

I see it as a sewn-in label too.

ETA: There is a tag actually, clear in this photo.

Constance Marten with 'dead' baby in sling eight days before arrest

Constance Marten, 36, (pictured) was allegedly seen in a Brighton park with her lifeless baby in a sling eight days she was caught by police.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Also in the note underneath, in different writing it says “you not worthy” and “you not grateful”

Not sure if the word on the line after that is “evil”

I had read it as “even”.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Just google the Recovery Bible. It seems there is some controversy surrounding the organisation that publishes it with it being described as cult like in some places. This may be relevant or not given CMS past.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Just google the Recovery Bible. It seems there is some controversy surrounding the organisation that publishes it with it being described as cult like in some places. This may be relevant or not given CMS past.

On a tangent but yes there seems theres a lot of cult and evangelical infighting regarding the recovery bible

Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical? Is the Local Church a cult?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[ShadowPuppet]

On the notes, is it “Back channel going (unclear crumpled word)” on the line above the last paragraph on the first page? Then the line above it looks like “Saved water -” (or Watier, which could be a name as it’s capitalised?) but I can’t read the next bit. The envelope behind at the bottom is covered, so can only really make out ‘fight, in, it, lane, I, ready’ reading down the page.

I agree about the other bits, the ‘Believe the narrative’ part annd ‘you’re not worthy’ etc. Also the word sexual being very clear on the page with the phone number at the top.

 

[ifindedout]

Just google the Recovery Bible. It seems there is some controversy surrounding the organisation that publishes it with it being described as cult like in some places. This may be relevant or not given CMS past.

Recovery Version - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Cardgame]

Interesting that there was smoke damage to the flat and that their car caught on fire.

Fire being commonly used in rituals.

(I know there's been speculation that it was a mechanical fault but thought it worth noting)

 

[Obergine]

Drunk and careless with candles and running baths in my book.

 

[rockthecasbah]

Drunk and careless with candles and running baths in my book.

Yes, it says there were lots of candles at the cottage

 

[Lolabear]

On a tangent but yes there seems theres a lot of cult and evangelical infighting regarding the recovery bible

Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Are the teachings of Witness Lee and the Local Church biblical? Is the Local Church a cult?

www.gotquestions.org

Do you think they may both be involved with a cult...they were said to of disappeared for long periods from their flat in the past. Maybe they were trying to flee with victoria to wherever the culture was based. Jmo

 

[rightsaidfred]

Live reporting of today's hearing has begun

Recap as trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon at Old Bailey adjourned to next week

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues at the Old Bailey in London.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[rightsaidfred]

Do you think they may both be involved with a cult...they were said to of disappeared for long periods from their flat in the past. Maybe they were trying to flee with victoria to wherever the culture was based. Jmo

Seems like some theological differences, but nothing like TB Joshua / SCOAN in terms of the harm perpetrated.

One swallow doesn't make a summer - we don't know why they were in possession of that particular edition of the bible. It may just have been random chance - the one they were given, the one they found in the charity shop etc - without being followers of Witness Lee. For all we know they were completely unaware of the background to it, saw "recovery version" and made the same initial assumption that we did (recovery from addiction, mental health, or another of life's trials).

 

[Cardgame]

Live reporting of today's hearing has begun

Recap as trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon at Old Bailey adjourned to next week

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues at the Old Bailey in London.

www.theargus.co.uk

@rightsaidfred regarding your amazing timeline, do you know if any information has been published anywhere about when CM and MG first stated when Victoria has died to be around the second week of January?

I know there was a delay, and at first they wouldn't speak to authorities. But I'm not sure if I've read anywhere any specifics of their first court appearance, and how it relates to the version they eventually provided to police.

Ie Do we know if they both gave that version separately, without the chance to confer?

Because to have come up with that prior to their arrest would seem exceptionally cunning, given the specifics of what they are accused of.

 

[rightsaidfred]

@rightsaidfred regarding your amazing timeline, do you know if any information has been published anywhere about when CM and MG first stated when Victoria has died to be around the second week of January?

I know there was a delay, and at first they wouldn't speak to authorities. But I'm not sure if I've read anywhere any specifics of their first court appearance, and how it relates to the version they eventually provided to police.

Ie Do we know if they both gave that version separately, without the chance to confer?

Because to have come up with that prior to their arrest would seem exceptionally cunning, given the specifics of what they are accused of.

Thank you

Certainly she only said it after the body was found, as they were very tight lipped before then.

I'm not sure exactly when she said it was 9-11 January - though I think it was in police interviews.

They had WEEKS while on the run to come up with a consistent story that they would both tell.