UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Pidgy]

CM in police interview as reported by Argus:

"They made attempts to dig a grave for Victoria but they were 'too weak'."

Was was her body mass index at time of arrest?

What digging tools did they use?

Did they consider any other means of send-off?

Recap: Constance Marten describes Mark Gordon as 'her soulmate'

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Pidgy]

So interesting that you read it as having "done well". I find her explanations completely unconvincing, maybe even baffling.

I mean, I guess she managed to stay sitting in a chair which is more than MG managed, but as for explaining how her child ended up dead in a plastic bag in a shed, there's absolutely no humanly understandable explanation that ive read so far.

I'm only going off the Argus updates tho, perhaps there is more info elsewhere?

I'm only reading the Argus too. If you put yourself in a defence lawyer's shoes, would you think "She really messed up those interviews, and saying 'no comment' would have been better"?

Clients who aren't professional criminals (who usually go no comment to everything) mess up interviews all the time.

 

[Smccat]

CM in police interview as reported by Argus:

"They made attempts to dig a grave for Victoria but they were 'too weak'."

Was was her body mass index at time of arrest?

What digging tools did they use?

Did they consider any other means of send-off?

Recap: Constance Marten describes Mark Gordon as 'her soulmate'

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

Cremation was considered wasn't it. Hence the petrol purchased.

 

[Smccat]

3:02pm - Argus Live Stream

Marten said they considered burning the body but didn't to keep it as evidence.

Marten said she didn't know "what state" the baby's body would be in because they had been "dragging the bag" because it was "so heavy".

They had put soil in the bag "to try and mask the smell".

They made attempts to dig a grave for Victoria but they were "too weak".

 

[GreekGal]

I'm only reading the Argus too. If you put yourself in a defence lawyer's shoes, would you think "She really messed up those interviews, and saying 'no comment' would have been better"?

Clients who aren't professional criminals (who usually go no comment to everything) mess up interviews all the time.

I am keen to see how the defence explains how Victoria slept between CM and MG in a sleeping bag in the tent (Argus today) when according to CM the baby had already died in Harwich (before they even purchased the tent and sleeping bag in London.)
Indeed CCTV footage at the kebab shop shows that Victoria was most definitely alive after Harwich. I don't think CM counted on the police having that footage when she made her police statement.

 

[Smccat]

Constance Marten advised to say baby was victim of ‘cot death’, court told

Victoria’s remains were found in a Lidl supermarket bag inside a disused shed on an allotment.

www.standard.co.uk

"Fugitive aristocrat Constance Marten was advised by her partner to say their baby was the victim of “cot death”, after the child died in her arms as she slept, a court has heard".

 

[Alyce]

Circumstantial evidence is often the very best evidence. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it and it's definitely possible to get a conviction in a no body murder case based purely on circumstantial evidence. It's just part of a jigsaw puzzle that when the jury put it together can give them a picture that they can be sure a person has committed a crime (or not).

Absolutely this.

There is a long, long list on Wiki ( and probably other websites too ) of murder convictions for * no body * murder cases for the UK and around the world.
As many of us know ( those of us who follow trials regularly on WS ) it is, more often than not, the heavy circumstantial evidence that convicts these murderers.

 

[Smccat]

From Evening Standard Article above

When she woke up, Victoria had gone “limp” and did not respond to resuscitation attempts, the defendant said.
Marten said she did not seek help because the child was no longer alive.

She said she wrapped the baby up and held her for hours before putting her in a bag.

She said: “Initially Mark and I were talking about what to do with the situation and I think, like two weeks after it happened, I was debating whether to hand myself in.

“Mark advised me to say it was a cot death and I was not holding her.

“And he advised me to say that I lay her down and then when we woke up she was on her front and she’s passed away.​

“But that isn’t what happened. So he may try to say that in order to protect me because he wants to protect my interests.”

 

[elliefant]

Circumstantial evidence - which includes things like DNA, fingerprints, blood analysis - is often far more compelling to a jury than direct evidence, imo. I have often seen police interviews where they state they rely heavily on such circumstantial evidence as it does not lie or err unlike direct evidence eg witness statements.

 

[Pidgy]

Absolutely this.

There is a long, long list on Wiki ( and probably other websites too ) of murder convictions for * no body * murder cases for the UK and around the world.
As many of us know ( those of us who follow trials regularly on WS ) it is, more often than not, the heavy circumstantial evidence that convicts these murderers.

In Britain there are a few hundred convictions each year for murder. The average annual number for which there's no body is probably far less than 1. Perhaps in one case every 10 years or something like that. It is extremely rare. I don't know whether there is a record available.

FWIW I am not trying to purvey the wrong idea that it's impossible to convict for murder without a body, or that it hasn't happened (it certainly has happened), or that it's impossible to convict for a crime on circumstantial evidence (which also happens a fair bit).

 

[Legally Bland]

In Britain there are a few hundred convictions each year for murder. The average annual number for which there's no body is probably far less than 1. Perhaps in one case every 10 years or something like that. It is extremely rare. I don't know whether there is a record available.

FWIW I am not trying to purvey the wrong idea that it's impossible to convict for murder without a body, or that it hasn't happened (it certainly has happened), or that it's impossible to convict for a crime on circumstantial evidence (which also happens a fair bit).

I think that's more an indication of most murder cases having a body, rather than the effectiveness of trying such cases,

 

[Pidgy]

According to CM they have been married for 7 years. Wearing my defence hat: she should have done a Princess Diana (Martin Bashir interview) and kept referring to MG as "my husband".

Recap: Constance Marten describes Mark Gordon as 'her soulmate'

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues.

www.theargus.co.uk

"Marten said her and Gordon married in Peru seven years ago but that the marriage was not recognised in England.

She said they met "eight or nine years ago" in a shop in London and went for coffee.

"It went from there," she said.

"He's my soulmate.""

<modsnip>

 

[Smccat]

Constance Marten told police she tried to 'resuscitate' her baby

Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of causing the death of baby Victoria by living in a tent 'off grid' in the middle of winter.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'And I wanted to give her a proper burial so, we carried her with us, not knowing what to do. I mean she's got soil on top of her, like in the bag and obviously the bag got extremely heavy, I don't know why her body did that because I think she's quite light but it's been quite difficult to carry around. It's extremely heavy to carry.'

The officer asked: 'What were you eventually going to do with Victoria?'

Marten replied: 'Um probably bury her. Well I want her to have a gravestone, potentially like a stone angel next to her with her name on it.'

She said Gordon was the father of all her children and that they had kept Victoria's birth secret from everyone else.

She said: 'It got to the point where she became really heavy, the bag became too heavy to carry, I don't know why I haven't looked at the body or neither has Mark but it just became excessively heavy.'

Asked where Gordon was when Victoria died, she said: 'I'm not going to comment on that. You'll have to ask him.'

 

[Zuleika]

Bag became “too heavy”​

“It got to the point where she became really heavy, the bag became too heavy to carry," said Marten

“It just became excessively heavy and also Mark and I hadn’t eaten in a long time, it just became impossible to carry it, so sometimes we actually had to leave it in the tent or in the allotment, we left it in there because it was just too, too heavy.

“I almost fainted it was so heavy.”

How can the bag have become too heavy over time? Poor baby Victoria will weigh no more dead than alive! It's nonsense!

As I understood it they placed soil in the bag to cover the smell .
I can understand that if you're weak in yourself it could possibly feel heavier .

 

[rightsaidfred]

Marten said her and Gordon married in Peru seven years ago but that the marriage was not recognised in England.

She said they met "eight or nine years ago" in a shop in London and went for coffee.

"It went from there," she said.

"He's my soulmate."

(From the Argus live reporting)

Someone needs to tell CM to get her facts straight; if they were legally married in Peru then they're legally married here

Your marriage or civil partnership will be recognised in the UK if both of the following apply:

• you followed the correct process in the country where you got married
• it would be allowed under UK law

Getting married abroad

Requirements, paperwork and processes for weddings and civil partnerships overseas - registration, restrictions, fees

www.gov.uk

Further details, specifically for Peru
Marriage in Peru - Getting married abroad - GOV.UK

Either she's lying, or it wasn't a legal ceremony in either Peru or the UK - just a handfasting or something equally non-legal.

 

[Pidgy]

(From the Argus live reporting)

Someone needs to tell CM to get her facts straight; if they were legally married in Peru then they're legally married here

Getting married abroad

Requirements, paperwork and processes for weddings and civil partnerships overseas - registration, restrictions, fees

www.gov.uk

Further details, specifically for Peru
Marriage in Peru - Getting married abroad - GOV.UK

Either she's lying, or it wasn't a legal ceremony in either Peru or the UK - just a handfasting or something equally non-legal.

If a requirement wasn't met, or it couldn't be shown to have been met, why not just get married again in Britain? (There could possibly be an answer to this that relates to trust funds.)

 

[Smccat]

Quick Google and first site I came across but more info:
Legal requirements and paperwork aren't really their strong suit though.

Is my overseas marriage recognised in the UK? | IMD Solicitors | Legal Solutions for Global Families

Speak to a member of our specialist international team of UK family lawyers today on 0330 107 0107. Getting married overseas is an exciting and romantic adventure for many couples. Whether you’ve tied the knot on a sun-kissed beach or in a stunning European city, it’s a chance to celebrate your...

imd.co.uk

Common issues with overseas marriages​

There are several common issues that can arise with overseas marriages. These include:

Language barriers​

Getting married in a foreign country may mean that you have to navigate language barriers. You may need to have documents translated or hire a translator to communicate with officials.

Cultural differences​

Different cultures have different traditions and expectations when it comes to marriage. For example, in some cultures, it’s customary to have a religious ceremony, while in others, a civil ceremony is more common. Understanding and navigating these differences can be challenging.

Legal requirements​

As mentioned earlier, different countries have different legal requirements for marriage. Failure to comply with these requirements may mean that your marriage is not legally valid.

Paperwork​

Getting married overseas often involves a lot of paperwork, including obtaining visas, passports, and marriage certificates. Keeping track of all these documents can be overwhelming.

Legal steps to take if your marriage is not recognised in the UK​

If your overseas marriage is not recognised in the UK, you may need to take legal steps to ensure that your marriage is legally valid. The process will depend on the specific circumstances of your marriage, but some common steps include:

Getting married again in the UK​

If your marriage is not recognised in the UK, you may need to get married again in the UK to ensure that your marriage is legally valid. This will involve complying with the legal requirements for marriage in the UK.

Applying for a declaration of validity​

If you believe that your overseas marriage should be recognised in the UK, you can apply to the court for a declaration of validity. This will involve providing evidence to the court that your marriage is legally valid.

Applying for a court order​

If you’re unable to register your overseas marriage in the UK, you may need to apply for a court order to have your marriage recognised. This can be a complex and time-consuming process, and it’s advisable to seek legal advice.

 

[pokerowan]

Quick Google and first site I came across but more info:
Legal requirements and paperwork aren't really their strong suit though.

Is my overseas marriage recognised in the UK? | IMD Solicitors | Legal Solutions for Global Families

Speak to a member of our specialist international team of UK family lawyers today on 0330 107 0107. Getting married overseas is an exciting and romantic adventure for many couples. Whether you’ve tied the knot on a sun-kissed beach or in a stunning European city, it’s a chance to celebrate your...

imd.co.uk

Common issues with overseas marriages​

There are several common issues that can arise with overseas marriages. These include:

Language barriers​

Getting married in a foreign country may mean that you have to navigate language barriers. You may need to have documents translated or hire a translator to communicate with officials.

Cultural differences​

Different cultures have different traditions and expectations when it comes to marriage. For example, in some cultures, it’s customary to have a religious ceremony, while in others, a civil ceremony is more common. Understanding and navigating these differences can be challenging.

Legal requirements​

As mentioned earlier, different countries have different legal requirements for marriage. Failure to comply with these requirements may mean that your marriage is not legally valid.

Paperwork​

Getting married overseas often involves a lot of paperwork, including obtaining visas, passports, and marriage certificates. Keeping track of all these documents can be overwhelming.

Legal steps to take if your marriage is not recognised in the UK​

If your overseas marriage is not recognised in the UK, you may need to take legal steps to ensure that your marriage is legally valid. The process will depend on the specific circumstances of your marriage, but some common steps include:

Getting married again in the UK​

If your marriage is not recognised in the UK, you may need to get married again in the UK to ensure that your marriage is legally valid. This will involve complying with the legal requirements for marriage in the UK.

Applying for a declaration of validity​

If you believe that your overseas marriage should be recognised in the UK, you can apply to the court for a declaration of validity. This will involve providing evidence to the court that your marriage is legally valid.

Applying for a court order​

If you’re unable to register your overseas marriage in the UK, you may need to apply for a court order to have your marriage recognised. This can be a complex and time-consuming process, and it’s advisable to seek legal advice.

Maybe by "the marriage was not recognised in England", she actually means "I didn't provide proof we were married overseas to get it recognised at home"? If it was a valid union, CM may not realise (or even disagree with) the process of providing proof to inform the UK government.

 

[JennieM]

Constance Marten says Mark Gordon told her to say baby died of cot death​

[…]

Ms Marten also said she told Mr Gordon to say he was not present when Victoria died because she wanted to protect him "because obviously he's my husband".

She went on to tell detectives that Mr Gordon told her to say their baby's death was a cot death.

She said: "Mark advised me to say that it was cot death... and that I wasn't holding her.

"He advised me to say that I lay her down and then when we woke up she was on her front and she'd passed away."

[…]

Constance Marten says Mark Gordon told her to say baby died of cot death

She also told detectives she debated handing herself in two weeks after their baby died.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Pidgy]

Maybe by "the marriage was not recognised in England", she actually means "I didn't provide proof we were married overseas to get it recognised at home"? If it was a valid union, CM may not realise (or even disagree with) the process of providing proof to inform the UK government.

Or she didn't want the marriage to come to the attention of whoever controlled the trust fund purse strings.