UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #1

[JamesKing]

Do we know when the bin was picked up?

I believe 4.00am (ish). Although, as anything else..... that could change !

They'll have the bin lorry on cctv from the "camera two" position (so it was said on FB by Corrie's mum).
And they say the Five Ways camera was activated at 4.30am ish
Triangulation calculated the phone took 28mins to get from Bury to Barton.

So "4.00am ish" ?

 

[JamesKing]

Regarding fake taxis.

Most fake taxis are going to be doing it to undercut the prices of real taxis and private hire services. If you sit in a bay and pretend to be a taxi, anyone could get in for a ride, and it's not likely to be the type of person you're 'targeting' if this is a ruse to pick up a certain type of person.

As for abduction of someone who's tall, young, strong, fit

One way to do that is to have two or three guys jump out and bundle the person into a van or the back of a car. Another way to do it is a ruse, and this can be done by one person. The simplest ruse here is not a fake taxi but someone driving by and offering someone a lift. I think this scenario is unlikely to be particularly well-planned and not targeted down to the individual level, we'd have to be looking for a 'type' of person if we were driving around on the offchance that something might catch our eye and an opportunity present itself. And the opportunity might not happen tonight, that might be part of the adrenaline buzz that you don't know if tonight's going to be the night.

Once the pick up has been made, the driver's adrenaline is going to be buzzing even higher, but if the ruse was good, then Corrie's adrenaline levels could be pretty flat right up to the point where it's blindingly obvious that he's being attacked, which might not be until an attack has already started, and this can give a massive advantage to our hypothetical perp.

I have been considering this, since there is a "situation" in Bury at present.

Would Corrie have got into the vehicle of someone "offering him" a lift ?

1. Probably, if he knew them
2. Possibly, if he didn't know them, but felt safe (a female ? a fellow airman ?)
3. Doubtful, if he didn't know them (in BOAR and especially in Op Banner it was deemed a "security hazard")
3. Probably, if it was for payment (if someone was an "illegal taxi" at a cheaper rate)

Then it's the "one man / driver" verse "RAF Reg Gunner". And that's a problem.
A potential attacker would have to be confident he could over-power anyone he picked up.

1. Sheer numbers ? More than one attacker ?
2. A weapon involved ? The threat of using something ? A knife ? A gun ?
3. A weapon employed ? A taser ?

Then there's CCTV. And the likelihood of being seen.
A "City Centre" is a busy place and there are CCTV cameras...in strategic places.

1. Pre-planning. Knowledge of CCTV camera positions ?

And that brings me to a point with regard to "illegal taxi" operators. I have had experience of them in the past. One guy I used a couple of times would park up in a side street....and wait outside a club or near a taxi rank. That's how he got his customers. He'd just ask if you wanted a taxi.
After you agreed a price (or nailed him down to a "cheaper than a normal taxi price"), you'd walk with him around a corner ....and that's where he was parked up. Normally (infact always!) in a "cheap run-a-round".

What bothers me with all this is.....

1. Corrie appears to be "waiting" whilst in the doorway. I can only assume, he's waiting for his mates. Seems logical.
2. He'd have to go and find them. It's unlikely they'd go and find him. Where did they eventually go ?
3. Corrie "nips for a pee". To nip "behind the shops" is where I'd go. It's out of the way.
4. So where was he heading to next ?

His mates were in Flex. That closes around 3am.
Corrie is awake at 3am....but he doesn't call/text them NOR do they call/text him.
If he was waiting for them....why not call/text ?
If he knew where they usually went (kebab shop ? Taxi rank ?) he'd go there. No need to call/text.

Of course, everything could have gone bad in the "loading bay area". And it was just "unlucky" there was no CCTV on that place at that precise time. But that just seems weird.

 

[hermes&&]

I believe 4.00am (ish). Although, as anything else..... that could change !

They'll have the bin lorry on cctv from the "camera two" position (so it was said on FB by Corrie's mum).
And they say the Five Ways camera was activated at 4.30am ish
Triangulation calculated the phone took 28mins to get from Bury to Barton.

So "4.00am ish" ?

Just thinking aloud.

Let's assume that the phone was in the bin lorry but it seems that Corrie was not because of the weight of the bin that was picked up.

So Corrie gets to bins at 0324 by 0400 he's become separated from his phone and left the area.

A fair assumption that phone was in the bin and that's how it got into lorry.

Had Corrie dropped his phone I think it's likely he would have spent a bit of time looking for it.

As someone mentioned the bins have lids, so my feeling is if the phone was in the bin someone put it there deliberately and Corrie left the area without his phone.


Not sure what this means.




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[hermes&&]

I have been considering this, since there is a "situation" in Bury at present.

Would Corrie have got into the vehicle of someone "offering him" a lift ?

1. Probably, if he knew them
2. Possibly, if he didn't know them, but felt safe (a female ? a fellow airman ?)
3. Doubtful, if he didn't know them (in BOAR and especially in Op Banner it was deemed a "security hazard")
3. Probably, if it was for payment (if someone was an "illegal taxi" at a cheaper rate)

Then it's the "one man / driver" verse "RAF Reg Gunner". And that's a problem.
A potential attacker would have to be confident he could over-power anyone he picked up.

1. Sheer numbers ? More than one attacker ?
2. A weapon involved ? The threat of using something ? A knife ? A gun ?
3. A weapon employed ? A taser ?

Then there's CCTV. And the likelihood of being seen.
A "City Centre" is a busy place and there are CCTV cameras...in strategic places.

1. Pre-planning. Knowledge of CCTV camera positions ?

And that brings me to a point with regard to "illegal taxi" operators. I have had experience of them in the past. One guy I used a couple of times would park up in a side street....and wait outside a club or near a taxi rank. That's how he got his customers. He'd just ask if you wanted a taxi.
After you agreed a price (or nailed him down to a "cheaper than a normal taxi price"), you'd walk with him around a corner ....and that's where he was parked up. Normally (infact always!) in a "cheap run-a-round".

What bothers me with all this is.....

1. Corrie appears to be "waiting" whilst in the doorway. I can only assume, he's waiting for his mates. Seems logical.
2. He'd have to go and find them. It's unlikely they'd go and find him. Where did they eventually go ?
3. Corrie "nips for a pee". To nip "behind the shops" is where I'd go. It's out of the way.
4. So where was he heading to next ?

His mates were in Flex. That closes around 3am.
Corrie is awake at 3am....but he doesn't call/text them NOR do they call/text him.
If he was waiting for them....why not call/text ?
If he knew where they usually went (kebab shop ? Taxi rank ?) he'd go there. No need to call/text.

Of course, everything could have gone bad in the "loading bay area". And it was just "unlucky" there was no CCTV on that place at that precise time. But that just seems weird.

Could he have been heading to his car? Where was his car? How did his mates get back after the club?

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[JamesKing]

This is the problem....
.....where was he heading ?

We don't have enough information to "guess" at that. But I don't think he was "up to something".
He was merely "heading homewards". Whether that was to meet his mates first (and we don't know where they were) or to pop to his car (and we don't know where that was) or to go directly to the taxi rank.

Taking a look at BSE and their CCTV coverage, you can see there are "holes" in the coverage.

CCTV #1 is "Camera 34" That's when you see him heading to the doorway.
CCTV #2 is "Camera 9" And that's as we see him enter Short Brackland and go to the "loading bay".

Now there is also "Camera 11" which is interesting, but I believe it didn't pick up anything of Corrie.
This camera is situated at "20-21a Butter Market". It's noted as "Dixon's" but I believe that is now Starbucks (?).

It appears to look in three ways (maybe more). I suspect it looks.....
A. Down to the Cornhill Shopping Centre (the alley between McDonalds and the museum).
B. Onto the Market Square itself and
C. Back down Butter Market, on to the oncoming traffic.

It is "probable" that this camera is also on an "automatic timed sweep" of those areas.
I don't know its "range" or "field of view".

If we have Corrie in Short Brackland, he would have to "cross the Market Square at the top" to head for the taxi rank OR "come out next to the museum, then cross the Market Square diagonally, to reach the taxi rank".

So "Camera 11" would be crucial to say "he was in the Market Square "at some point" and "in a certain part of it" OR importantly, it could mean he never made it that far. But note, this camera is probably on an "automatic sweep", so those conclusions maybe not as concrete as they may first appear. However, if he crossed the square "diagonally", I would expect him to be picked up by this camera.



Reference The CCTV cameras

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/319850/response/802518/attach/5/Bury St Edmunds.pdf


A rough location of "Camera 11"

https://goo.gl/maps/HVVWSr9SzGD2

Note, you can "click on the screen" and revolve around to see what "field of view" that position has of the "likely place Corrie would have been in....had he taken a number of possible routes (including "heading past the Cornhill Shopping Centre" if indeed he did so...albeit, he may have been missed by this "timed" camera).

So.... where his car "was parked", is quite crucial in understanding his decision making process.

 

[jslk]

A fair assumption that phone was in the bin and that's how it got into lorry.

Had Corrie dropped his phone I think it's likely he would have spent a bit of time looking for it.

As someone mentioned the bins have lids, so my feeling is if the phone was in the bin someone put it there deliberately and Corrie left the area without his phone.

RSBM.

I definitely agree that the simplest explanation is that the phone goes to the tip with the bin by accident.

I was wondering if Corrie was using the phone (about to text his mates? As a light?) and placed it on top of a bin while he had a wee. He then maybe forgot to pick it back up (unlikely imo but he didn't pick it up for whatever reason). Maybe it was on its side or face down and somewhat invisible once he put it down?

Could it have become wedged in a crevice/handle on the lid and transferred to the lorry like that, once tipped?


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[hermes&&]

This is the problem....
.....where was he heading ?

We don't have enough information to "guess" at that. But I don't think he was "up to something".
He was merely "heading homewards". Whether that was to meet his mates first (and we don't know where they were) or to pop to his car (and we don't know where that was) or to go directly to the taxi rank.

Taking a look at BSE and their CCTV coverage, you can see there are "holes" in the coverage.

CCTV #1 is "Camera 34" That's when you see him heading to the doorway.
CCTV #2 is "Camera 9" And that's as we see him enter Short Brackland and go to the "loading bay".

Now there is also "Camera 11" which is interesting, but I believe it didn't pick up anything of Corrie.
This camera is situated at "20-21a Butter Market". It's noted as "Dixon's" but I believe that is now Starbucks (?).

It appears to look in three ways (maybe more). I suspect it looks.....
A. Down to the Cornhill Shopping Centre (the alley between McDonalds and the museum).
B. Onto the Market Square itself and
C. Back down Butter Market, on to the oncoming traffic.

It is "probable" that this camera is also on an "automatic timed sweep" of those areas.
I don't know its "range" or "field of view".

If we have Corrie in Short Brackland, he would have to "cross the Market Square at the top" to head for the taxi rank OR "come out next to the museum, then cross the Market Square diagonally, to reach the taxi rank".

So "Camera 11" would be crucial to say "he was in the Market Square "at some point" and "in a certain part of it" OR importantly, it could mean he never made it that far. But note, this camera is probably on an "automatic sweep", so those conclusions maybe not as concrete as they may first appear. However, if he crossed the square "diagonally", I would expect him to be picked up by this camera.



Reference The CCTV cameras

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/319850/response/802518/attach/5/Bury St Edmunds.pdf


A rough location of "Camera 11"

https://goo.gl/maps/HVVWSr9SzGD2

Note, you can "click on the screen" and revolve around to see what "field of view" that position has of the "likely place Corrie would have been in....had he taken a number of possible routes (including "heading past the Cornhill Shopping Centre" if indeed he did so...albeit, he may have been missed by this "timed" camera).

So.... where his car "was parked", is quite crucial in understanding his decision making process.

Interesting,

what's bugging me is why would he leave the bin area without his phone? And how did the phone end up in the bin which seems a distinct possibility.

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[JamesKing]

Interesting,

what's bugging me is why would he leave the bin area without his phone? And how did the phone end up in the bin which seems a distinct possibility.

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Maybe, that's where whatever happened, happened.
And whom ever was there, dumped the phone ?

If he is at the loading bay at 3.25am and the bin lorry is there at 4.00am.... that's just a huge "disconnect" I simply cannot work out.

 

[hermes&&]

Maybe, that's where whatever happened, happened.
And whom ever was there, dumped the phone ?

If he is at the loading bay at 3.25am and the bin lorry is there at 4.00am.... that's just a huge "disconnect" I simply cannot work out.

I agree, my first thought was that he must have been in the bin with his phone, and that the last pings were from the waste transfer station area. I was sure of it..... But the bin weight rules that out as does the subsequent search at the landfill and as does the forensics. Unless the weighing mechanism was seriously broken ( and it must have been checked) he wasn't in the bin or the lorry.

And something must have happened in that bin area to separate him from his phone and put the phone in the bin.

An alternative hypothesis is that he was with his phone all the time and coincidentally in a vehicle whose timing coincided with the bin lorry. But that would leave half an hour unexplained for between 0324 and 0400

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[mrazda71]

Maybe, that's where whatever happened, happened.
And whom ever was there, dumped the phone ?

If he is at the loading bay at 3.25am and the bin lorry is there at 4.00am.... that's just a huge "disconnect" I simply cannot work out.

If Corrie put his phone on top of the bin and then walked off without it, it might be some time before he remembers/realises that he'd left it ...

He leaves the area ...

Bin lorry arrives, it's 4a.m so dark - driver pushes bin to lorry - phone is in a black case which would be less likely to slide off during pushing - bin goes into the lift hinge outwards and then tipped up and forwards so phone just slides right in ...

 

[JamesKing]

I agree, my first thought was that he must have been in the bin with his phone, and that the last pings were from the waste transfer station area. I was sure of it..... But the bin weight rules that out as does the subsequent search at the landfill and as does the forensics. Unless the weighing mechanism was seriously broken ( and it must have been checked) he wasn't in the bin or the lorry.

And something must have happened in that bin area to separate him from his phone and put the phone in the bin.

An alternative hypothesis is that he was with his phone all the time and coincidentally in a vehicle whose timing coincided with the bin lorry. But that would leave half an hour unexplained for between 0324 and 0400

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But that would leave half an hour unexplained for between 0324 and 0400

That's where I struggle to !

An idea I came up with was "what if he and or his phone were in the bin lorry, but neither were ever in the bin".

The problem of the "35 minutes" still exists.
But as it is pretty impossible for him to just walk away and not be seen by cameras, then for that time window (3.25 to 4.00) he is still there ? Maybe unconscious ?

The camera #9 points down the alley and partial looks onto Short Brackland.
A bin lorry has to reverse up to the bins.
To do that, the bin lorry driver uses his mirrors and his rear view camera.
A bin is manoeuvred into place and the collection is done.
The bin is put back and the driver moves down the Right Hand Side of his lorry.
He then departs

That means both the driver and camera #9 cannot see the rear left hand side of the bin lorry.

Clearly Corrie wouldn't throw himself into a bin lorry rear end. But someone might.
There are "huge" problems with that scenario. The "35 minute" wait is one of them. And the driver not seeing people in the loading area is another. But because the view to the rear of the bin lorry is totally obscured for "part of the time", then I guess it is possible....

 

[hermes&&]

But that would leave half an hour unexplained for between 0324 and 0400

That's where I struggle to !

An idea I came up with was "what if he and or his phone were in the bin lorry, but neither were ever in the bin".

The problem of the "35 minutes" still exists.
But as it is pretty impossible for him to just walk away and not be seen by cameras, then for that time window (3.25 to 4.00) he is still there ? Maybe unconscious ?

The camera #9 points down the alley and partial looks onto Short Brackland.
A bin lorry has to reverse up to the bins.
To do that, the bin lorry driver uses his mirrors and his rear view camera.
A bin is manoeuvred into place and the collection is done.
The bin is put back and the driver moves down the Right Hand Side of his lorry.
He then departs

That means both the driver and camera #9 cannot see the rear left hand side of the bin lorry.

Clearly Corrie wouldn't throw himself into a bin lorry rear end. But someone might.
There are "huge" problems with that scenario. The "35 minute" wait is one of them. And the driver not seeing people in the loading area is another. But because the view to the rear of the bin lorry is totally obscured for "part of the time", then I guess it is possible....

But they would have found him at the landfill if not the transfer station and might have left forensic evidence

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[bestie]

Could he have been heading to his car? Where was his car? How did his mates get back after the club?

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My first post on this thread was asking the questions of where he would normally park his car, how he would get back, who with and was he heading in the right direction.
Don't forget his mum stated he's a creature of habit so I still believe he did or planned to do what he would normally do.

The puzzling bit for me is he appeared to wait in the doorway after waking up, this was for 20-25 minutes before going to the loading area, why ? He must have been waiting for someone / a lift, was that the normal meeting point.

I don't feel we are being shown the full cctv clips, and I feel the police know who else or what vehicles where in that area.

 

[JamesKing]

But they would have found him at the landfill if not the transfer station and might have left forensic evidence

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But they didn't find the phone there either. That's the thing.
But yeah, I can't explain that. Just looking at "alternatives".

Here's another "explanation" of the cameras.

The whole of "Short Brackland" and "all the way down Cannon Street" are not covered by CCTV.
The only "bit" that is, is the very top part seen by Camera #9. And that is on a timer.

Coming back out of Short Brackland the way he entered, gives a "possible view" by Camera #34.
This is the camera the first released footage came from.
Also, depending which way it is looking, Camera #9 could possibly see him again. But it's on a timer and we don't know which way it's pointing.

Another possible exit could be covered by Camera #11.
This camera could also pick up cars, if waiting a decent amount of time in Market Square and possibly if entering the Square. Remember, it's all One Way here. Camera #12 may also have a view of traffic entering the Square.

If a car left the Square, it may also possibly be caught by 3 other cameras, depending which way they are looking and if they are on timed sweeps, or not. They being Camera's #14, #13 and possibly #12

The "clearest route" to go and only have about 42 secs of coverage per 3 minutes and 30 seconds, is down Short Brackland.... but if neither 1. his car, nor 2. a taxi rank is down that road, then it is the least likely route for HIM to walk. But not possibly someone else.

 

[JamesKing]

My first curious thought in all this was, why tip waste paper into a landfill ? I thought they recycled that ?
Then I thought, who's rubbish was it ? Was it from Gregg's ? Was it from Superdrug ?

I can only guess both shops must have a lot of cardboard (boxes) as rubbish. I image lots of shops have that.
And if lots of shops have it, surely someone has figured out what to do with it as a "recyclable material" by now ?

Landfill ? Really ?

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

The place the bin lorry went is a recycling centre, James. At least that is where I believe it went?

 

[Horrace123]

I reckon the police have plenty of CCTV footage with people and vehicle details. They just havent told the public.

Theyve said nothing through all of this public speculation. Its just been corries family talking/guessing.

 

[hermes&&]

My first curious thought in all this was, why tip waste paper into a landfill ? I thought they recycled that ?
Then I thought, who's rubbish was it ? Was it from Gregg's ? Was it from Superdrug ?

I can only guess both shops must have a lot of cardboard (boxes) as rubbish. I image lots of shops have that.
And if lots of shops have it, surely someone has figured out what to do with it as a "recyclable material" by now ?

Landfill ? Really ?

Cardboard would be in a different bin to the bin for general waste and picked up by a different lorry. The general waste would be taken to recycling centre where it would be sorted to reduce the waste needing to go to landfill. This sorting is either by hand or sometimes mechanical. The residue is then taken to landfill. If sorted by hand he would have been seen as might the phone. If it's mechanical maybe only a crane operator involved.

I dont know what applied in this case.

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[farfaraway]

He goes for a wee near the bins and decides this plan of walking back to Honington at 4am while it may have seemed a good idea at the time now doesn't appear so appealing. Someone said he looked to be limping maybe his footwear isn't ideal for a long night march. So he hops into the bin to hide and sleep till morning when he can collect his car now sobered up but he hasn't dozed off long when the noise of the bin lorry wakes him and he jumps back out before the bin men see him. In his haste the phone either drops out of his pocket or he was holding and it slipped out of his palm while he slept. The phone gets taken away in the bin lorry and Corrie has gone somewhere else without it.

 

[mrazda71]

From the Facebook page ...

A woman who has private cctv footage of vehicles and someone on a bike along the Barton Mills road was still waiting (as of last week) for Police to get back to her and collect the cctv.

People living in the houses surrounding Short Brackland have not had any Police contact - door to door enquiries OR premises/outbuildings/gardens checked!!

I'm constantly divided on opinion - either Police know something we don't (and family don't either) OR Police don't have a clue and are pretty useless ...