UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #10

[Dcflag]

To be honest I'm absolutely aghast and surprised. Jo Public is not the person to potentially locate/triage/recover a body (if we're talking past tense) unless they have selected ex military types, ex SAR or ex Civil Emergency types. The mental scaring will be indelible forever. I should know.


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Nicola did ask for military/police type people, I assume she's handpicked the search team

 

[Dcflag]

[aside]
You know, I wonder if most people really do need "counselling" to deal with every shock or problem, or if it's a "need" created by the counselling industry. How on earth did people cope throughout history with far worse than possibly finding a body? I really do think this automatic rush to offer counselling can only undermine natural human resilience.
[/aside]

I'm in two minds regarding councilling for traumatic experiences. Me and my other half experienced a tragic event with our first child and I didn't have councilling where as if he didn't I don't know how he would have coped. He went for a full year and it 100% made a positive difference.

 

[MidsummersDay]

Nicola did ask for military/police type people, I assume she's handpicked the search team

I wasn't aware of that. My bad. Scratch my previous concern.


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[WhereIsJohnnyGosch]

Absolutely makes sense. What we can say then (from town centre to town centre roughly) is that the phone travelled at between 12mph and <30mph?
I know this is going to seem confusing for the forum thread but I think it's important if not very involved, as it COULD give a closer estimation of when he left BSE and consequently put potential witnesses and vehicles in the loop.

See where I'm going with this shizzle?


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Yes I see where you're going! I just think that with the lack of clarification of times/pings etc we could end up with an equation only Einstein could fathom which might be completely inaccurate anyway. I just wish more factual information could be released to the public, I understand why it hasn't but it's really frustrating!


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[MelmothTheLost]

I'm in two minds regarding councilling for traumatic experiences. Me and my other half experienced a tragic event with our first child and I didn't have councilling where as if he didn't I don't know how he would have coped. He went for a full year and it 100% made a positive difference.

I'm not disputing that some people find it useful in some situations. What I'm uneasy (and sceptical) of is the modern automatic assumption that everyone needs it for every upset.

 

[MidsummersDay]

Anywayz, are me and WhereIs allowed to apply our maths and physics heads now and come up with a new map for you all (with the help of the forum members obviously)?


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[WhereIsJohnnyGosch]

[aside]
You know, I wonder if most people really do need "counselling" to deal with every shock or problem, or if it's a "need" created by the counselling industry. How on earth did people cope throughout history with far worse than possibly finding a body? I really do think this automatic rush to offer counselling can only undermine natural human resilience.
[/aside]

They probably didn't cope very well. Think of the shell shock suffered by soldiers during WW1. Not everyone needs 'counselling' as you are thinking of it as many people find counsel elsewhere or within themselves. I wouldn't say it's a 'need' that's been created by the industry as much as a recognition that some people may need someone to share their experiences with in order to overcome them.

For some, the feeling that no one could possibly understand the things they have seen is more troubling than the actual experience in itself.


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[Northern Light]

I actually remember reading something where Tony had shared his early interview asking Corrie to get in touch. I think it was when he was saying about the possibility of AWOL and Nicola made a comment with words to to effect of If Corrie could get in touch he would have. I sensed a bit of animosity there and it was noticeable later that Tony changed his views on what may have happened and has also stated that AWOL is not an option.

Agreed. The appeal by Tony re AWOL is still available to read in MSM newspapers.

 

[MissTerious]

They probably didn't cope very well. Think of the shell shock suffered by soldiers during WW1. Not everyone needs 'counselling' as you are thinking of it as many people find counsel elsewhere or within themselves. I wouldn't say it's a 'need' that's been created by the industry as much as a recognition that some people may need someone to share their experiences with in order to overcome them.

For some, the feeling that no one could possibly understand the things they have seen is more troubling than the actual experience in itself.


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I didn't need counselling, yes I was deeply traumatised and the image kept popping into my head all times of day and night but I knew I didn't need counselling but time to work it through and that's what I did. I guess you are offered it and make your own mind up as I don't think anyone forces you to have it.

 

[Dcflag]

I'm not disputing that some people find it useful in some situations. What I'm uneasy (and sceptical) of is the modern automatic assumption that everyone needs it for every upset.

I agree, it's not something I've ever considered, I guess it's good to know it's available if needed though. Nhs can be so slow in terms of arranging it

 

[MidsummersDay]

A lot more money has been thrown into the British MHT system just recently. I can't see how this would help the searchers unless as has been stated earlier the operators are ex mil, ex EM etc. I have an extensive military background and a cat helped me believe it or not. No inexperienced, fresh faced councillor can help solve the trauma of finding carcasses and body parts. Grizzly but unfortunately fact.

Anyway, back on topic. New image anyone?


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[Shiressleuth]

Not really, if you are talking simultaneous algebraic equations then you can't have a rough constant because your sum product could be wildly inaccurate.

I see what you are getting at though but what I'm saying is it's not as simple as finding the distance between two points and dividing it by the time. Although that's all we have to go on at present, we should be mindful that the other factors we are unaware of (such as number of pings/direction/even the phones technology) could lead us up the wrong path.

Personally I'm not even convinced that the police have solid information on the phone pings, if they were that confident they would have searched the area they believed the phone to be in i.e. the last known position when it pinged. As far as I'm aware that hasn't been disclosed, it's only been mentioned as the recycling centre because they twigged from CCTV that the bin lorry went that way, although if anyone has any links to prove otherwise I am more than happy to look!


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I have seen various links. One this morning, an itv one, said it had travelled 12 miles in 28 minutes, so how was that ever turned into 12 mph? Still reviewing sources. Your point is good about whether they had accurate specific data in the first place. That's the trouble with maths and extrapolating. Am still reviewing sources......

 

[Dcflag]

I really appreciate all the math stuff as I don't understand it! Where did they get 12mph from? I seem to recall they felt it travelled slowly hence the bin lorry scenario

 

[MidsummersDay]

I really appreciate all the math stuff as I don't understand it! Where did they get 12mph from? I seem to recall they felt it travelled slowly hence the bin lorry scenario

This is EXACTLY where I'm trying to go with the maths stuff DC.
There are TWO separate problems here each with a number of problems attached to it.

First, the police state that Corrie was seen in Barton Mills/Mildenhall area between 0430 & 0800. We don't know if he had his phone with him but we may be able to marry up the phone timings later to prove or disprove other things...

Secondly, we have cast iron verbal evidence from Nicola that the phone (not necessarily Corrie) took 28 minutes NOT 30 or 26 BUT 28 minutes, to travel from one mast/area to another mast/area!!

We were trying to work out through algebra where those figures came from as they seem fairly accurate AND have been stated. I reckon that the 12mph is a rough speed between mast areas or mast to edge of adjacent mast area. Either way, it seems some information has been leaked out to the family and it's been misunderstood or interpreted wrongly.
I'm gonna go for a 28 minute journey (fact) as it's VERY specific and 0500 at BM mast.

As suggested earlier, it's NOT an exact science but it gives us something to work with in this barren case. :/

Thoughts?


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[Miss_French]

Nicola did ask for military/police type people, I assume she's handpicked the search team

Sounds like it is being driven by the family; Look East spoke to Andy King from SULSAR at lunchtime. It was put to him more as a statement than a question about volunteers searching and it not being as simple as it sounded. AK replied that they have a tight- knit unit and don't know the capabilities or physical fitness of the volunteers, or what equipment they have. I know its a soundbite but no "we're grateful for the extra help" or anything.

 

[Shiressleuth]

This is EXACTLY where I'm trying to go with the maths stuff DC.
There are TWO separate problems here each with a number of problems attached to it.

First, the police state that Corrie was seen in Barton Mills/Mildenhall area between 0430 & 0800. We don't know if he had his phone with him but we may be able to marry up the phone timings later to prove or disprove other things...

Secondly, we have cast iron verbal evidence from Nicola that the phone (not necessarily Corrie) took 28 minutes NOT 30 or 26 BUT 28 minutes, to travel from one mast/area to another mast/area!!

We were trying to work out through algebra where those figures came from as they seem fairly accurate AND have been stated. I reckon that the 12mph is a rough speed between mast areas or mast to edge of adjacent mast area. Either way, it seems some information has been leaked out to the family and it's been misunderstood or interpreted wrongly.
I'm gonna go for a 28 minute journey (fact) as it's VERY specific and 0500 at BM mast.

As suggested earlier, it's NOT an exact science but it gives us something to work with in this barren case. :/

Thoughts?


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I think it is incorrect to use 0500 as nicola calls it the "last ping" in the section you quote and as Whereis has pointed out we have no way of knowing where that happened. I believe the "first ping" on the BM mast was 0430 based on the police and family statements ( but again we don't know where that was) and we have the statement that time wise it moved from 03.24 BSE to 04.30 BM at the speed a vehicle would travel at and that is how it should be left. We may have these times but without knowing whether the locations were horseshoe, town centres or mast periphery we have no location or distance parameters to be able to calculate accurately.
Edit. P.s. he wasn't "seen" in the area but may have "been" in the area , prob based on phone data only.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Oh by the way I think I know what is meant by "triangulation" now. Is it two masts and the phone make three points which make a triangle?
Edit. Or is it strangulation by triangle?

 

[MidsummersDay]

I think it is incorrect to use 0500 as nicola calls it the "last ping" in the section you quote and as Whereis has pointed out we have no way of knowing where that happened. I believe the "first ping" on the BM mast was 0430 based on the police and family statements ( but again we don't know where that was) and we have the statement that time wise it moved from 03.24 BSE to 04.30 BM at the speed a vehicle would travel at and that is how it should be left. We may have these times but without knowing whether the locations were horseshoe, town centres or mast periphery we have no location or distance parameters to be able to calculate accurately.
Edit. P.s. he wasn't "seen" in the area but may have "been" in the area , prob based on phone data only.

I can see that this could possibly turn into a bone of contention for some but I definitely would like to debate it and separate the presented facts from the fiction.
How can it be incorrect if we have no LE to quote from but we DO have a primary verbal source? This isn't hearsay, this is primary verbal evidence. Granted she isn't a technical specialise but in the absence of all then we must consider this surely.
She is stating that the phone travelled for 28 minutes. We seem to have come to an agreement in the forum that this is a 'mast central to mast central' figure. Granted we have no way of knowing where the 0500 ping 'pinged' but it has to be on OR inside the BM mast footprint of 3-5km (approx)?
The 'Horseshoe is located a few hundred yards from where the EE mast is so that doesn't really matter. The mast radius is 3-5km (approx 2-3miles) so three miles from the mast when intersected with roads leading from BSE should give you a rough idea of the 'departure route' from the 'Horseshoe'.


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[Shiressleuth]

Sounds like it is being driven by the family; Look East spoke to Andy King from SULSAR at lunchtime. It was put to him more as a statement than a question about volunteers searching and it not being as simple as it sounded. AK replied that they have a tight- knit unit and don't know the capabilities or physical fitness of the volunteers, or what equipment they have. I know its a soundbite but no "we're grateful for the extra help" or anything.

I guess he's waiting till he sees what he gets.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Sorry I don't know why my stuff is posting twice. The edited one got thru first. I'll see if I can delete the later unedited one.
Edit. That worked.
The prob with calculating speed when you do not have the locations is exacerbated by the fact we are only talking about 12 miles distance altogether. That last ping at 0500 could be out on the opposite far reach of the mast periphery which could possible add 6 miles on to the distance so it could skew any calculation. Hence the original 12 mph calculation which we all thought was strange. I really don't see the point if it isn't accurate. So we have 28 minutes to travel how far?