Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

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As Jeremy has indicated he's content for discussion to continue, I'll share the thoughts I deleted previously. I posted a long time ago about the question of how David travelled from Piccadilly to Greenfield, and others have now picked up on this too. The documentary glossed over this aspect somewhat, and the feature on the BBC website is more informative. My own view is that David was killing time in Piccadilly, before meeting someone in a pre-arranged appointment at 1pm. I think that this person must have driven him to Greenfield, because I can't see how else he could have got there by 2, assuming that the landlord had the time right. I always thought it was a little odd that he would ask for directions without buying a drink - personally in that situation I'd order a half even if I didn't particularly want one - but if someone was waiting in a car outside, that would be a reason not to do so.

The location in which the body was found is another factor that, for me, points against suicide. Why would such a private person choose to end his life in such a (relatively) public location? Surely if that was the intention, you'd walk away from the main track to somewhere more secluded? But the biggest question is: why that particular location? If it had no particular significance for David (and I tend to think that his calling it 'the mountain' suggests it didn't), perhaps it did for his companion?

I think an open verdict was the right one, given the number of unanswered questions. I am surprised that the police have concluded that there was no third party involvement, especially as we now know that David paid for 5 nights in a hotel, as well as a return ticket to London. Surely that's a powerful argument against the suicide theory? The trip to Saddleworth was clearly purposeful​, even though that purpose is obscure. If this was a suicide, it must surely have been pre-planned; and yet there are too many factors pointing in the opposite direction to conclude that was what happened with any degree of confidence. Unless, of course​, he deliberately chose to manufacture an enigma, for reasons best known to himself. It's a little far-fetched, but not impossible, I suppose. I can imagine the idea appealing to a certain kind of personality, though perhaps more readily in fiction than reality. But there's so little evidence as to motive - for any given scenario - that any theories are almost entirely speculative.

"Unless, of course​, he deliberately chose to manufacture an enigma, for reasons best known to himself"

I suppose this might be a question for Jeremy - would David do that?

I am also wondering whether David left anything in his hotel room. We know his luggage and passport weren't there, but was there any indication he planned to return to that room? I suppose the hotel staff wouldn't recall much when questioned a year later, but are there any records of his stay?

It's quite strange there wasn't any further CCTV coverage, and presumably taxi drivers / bus times were checked, so I guess it does lead to a possibility of David getting a lift from someone.
 
I didn't see the documentary so , what happened with this money? Did he own the flat or did he buy it?

If he'd have taken public transport to the pub he'd have gotten there by two thirty. If he got a taxi it would have taken half hour and the fare would have been from £35-45


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My own view is that David was killing time in Piccadilly, before meeting someone in a pre-arranged appointment at 1pm. I think that this person must have driven him to Greenfield, because I can't see how else he could have got there by 2, assuming that the landlord had the time right.

I think this is a very interesting observation. I see now I didn't have the correct information on the tickets that were on his body. But it is noteworthy that he still had on him the ticket used to get from Ealing to Euston that morning (which presumably he could have simply discarded as it was now used) but he didn't have any ticket from a train to Saddleworth from Manchester.

If he met someone and they drove him to Greenfield, that would account for the short period of time between the sightings at Picadilly and walking into the Clarence. But then David was seen later walking up the mountain by himself.

The fact that the body was lying peacefully, yet supposedly he was killed by strychnine, suggests the possibility that the body was re-arranged after death. The missing items which should have been on his person also suggests this possibility. Did someone disturb the body after death but before rigor mortis set in? Did they take his wallet and glasses, and leave the cash so as not to around suspicion of a theft/murder?

There is one photo of him buying his ticket that morning which seems to show what looks like a mobile phone in his hand. If it's not a mobile, what is it?

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His glasses are also said to be missing, but curiously, he does not appear to be wearing glasses in any of the cctv images.

The walk from Greenfield station, to the Clarence Hotel, and up to the summit near Chew Reservoir where his body was found is about 6 kilometres, according to Google Earth. That's a fairly decent walk, on a miserable day, up a hill.

But if someone drove him there, then where was that person when David was seen walking up the hill? If David committed suicide, then he did so in a manner which seems to defy all rhyme and reason. On the other hand, if he was murdered by someone unknown, then the person seems to have gone to a lot of trouble to erase all traces of intervention. It seems to me that the question of how he got from Manchester city centre to the Clarence Hotel may hold the key to the entire mystery.
 

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I didn't see the documentary so , what happened with this money? Did he own the flat or did he buy it?

If he'd have taken public transport to the pub he'd have gotten there by two thirty. If he got a taxi it would have taken half hour and the fare would have been from £35-45


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From watching the programme, my understanding of the flat was that David bought it but it was in the name of another person as he wasn't allowed to own property in Pakistan.
I understood it to suggest that David transferred £100,000 to this same person who went on to purchase land with it.
Someone may correct me if I'm wrong.
ETA: to make a correction.

A further edit after just watching a section of the programme again.

There is a girlfriend that cannot be traced.
There's a mystery about how he really broke his leg.
Nobody knows what has happened to all of davids money.
 
I didn't see the documentary so , what happened with this money? Did he own the flat or did he buy it?

If he'd have taken public transport to the pub he'd have gotten there by two thirty. If he got a taxi it would have taken half hour and the fare would have been from £35-45


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He bought the flat in Pakistan, but because he wasn't allowed to own property there, it was registered in someone elses name. He later tranfered £100,000 into the bank account of another person... I don't know if it was the same person. This, it is claimed, was used to purchase land after David's death, but before he'd been identified. The person said they didn't purchase the land on David's behalf, and said it had all been spent.

Who is this person? Why would David give them £100, 000? Why has this not been fully investigated, and if it has, why was more not mentioned in the documentary?

None of it makes any sense.
 
In the cctv of David leaving Piccadilly, he is still carrying a bottle of water. I did wonder if he took the water with him to later swallow the tablets but if he did, was that bottle found with his body.

I don't see a phone in the above pic. I see what could be £ notes, held flat in his hand ready to pay for the tickets.
 
The thing with documentaries is they are made for entertainment, and in order to make them entertaining, they are edited to only show what they want the viewer to see, to produce the desired effect. In this case it seems to have left more questions than answers, which is what mysteries do. In all probability, and I would be very surprised if it were not the case, the police know far more than they are prepared to release to the public. Details about such things as the the family feud, the cause of his fractured femur, money and property, friends and relationships, the correspondence with his brother.

Skirting around these important issues creates good TV, but is frustrating to the viewer, as without the full facts, nothing can be concluded from it.
 
I don't understand how he still could've had an Ealing to Euston. If it was just a single, the machine (that you need to put it through so you can physically leave) at Euston would've kept it. Unless the machine wasn't working


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Unbelievably confusing. Just finished the documentary. What did David do day to day in Pakistan? Did he have any casual employment? Volunteering? It's so bizarre. Especially with the info from Jeremy that he hated heat. I am erring towards third party involvement and I really wasn't prior to the documentary. 🤔

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A few more thoughts:

As I understand it, thyroxine is normally taken in the morning on an empty stomach. So it seems improbable that someone deliberately switched the thyroxine for strychnine. Strychnine starts to act 10 to 20 minutes after absorption and death occurs in 2 - 3 hours.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strychnine_poisoning

It seems unlikely he would have been taking thyroxine at that time of day. There is the possibility someone else administered the strychnine. If they knew he was prescribed thyroxine they may have emptied the bottle of thyroxine and contaminated it with traces of strychnine to make it appear like suicide, or used their own thyroxine bottle. Yet the box containing the bottle looked well worn as if carried about his person. Would he carry thyroxine with him if only taken first thing in the morning on an empty stomach? Which leads me to believe he knew what was in the bottle and carried it on his person.

It is hard to imagine anyone choosing such a prolonged and horrific way to die. Yet his whole way of life seemed very much lacking in the basic comforts most of us take for granted, as though he saw struggle as a personal challenge. Maybe he chose to suffer in death as he appeared to do in life? Perhaps there was a religious component to it, to suffer as Jesus did during his crucifixion on mount Calvary? Not being a particularly religious person, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand Jews don't believe in Jesus as the prophet, and although David read the Quoran and some thought he had become Muslim, most Muslims reject the idea of the crucifixion and resurrection. But it has been said that he was very religious.
 
For me the missing passport and 18kg luggage could be indicative of 3rd party involvement, this is seemly inconsistent with the found train tickets. Also wondering how he was able to procure strychnine in Pakistan, if he wasnt even able to purchase a plane ticket unaided.
 
I don't understand how he still could've had an Ealing to Euston. If it was just a single, the machine (that you need to put it through so you can physically leave) at Euston would've kept it. Unless the machine wasn't working


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I meant the tube ticket being a single


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For me the missing passport and 18kg luggage could be indicative of 3rd party involvement, this is seemly inconsistent with the found train tickets. Also wondering how he was able to procure strychnine in Pakistan, if he wasnt even able to purchase a plane ticket unaided.

Welcome to Ws Bluetooth!
It is somewhat surprising that DL was able to travel with the poison, unless he obtained it in the UK, imo
 
I would assume the strychnine was disguised as the thyroid medication in order to get it through customs - the other possibility if there is 3rd party involvement is that said 3rd party could have obtained it on the black market - As far as I know you cant get that sort of poison easily here in the UK
If D did bring it in to the country himself, I cant imagine anyone would think to challenge an older white english speaking gentleman who was highly intelligent and well presented as to what the actual contents are
 
Thank you again for all your kind words

The letters sent to me stopped some time ago, there is confusion as to when exactly because I do not have them anymore. It is a waste of time chasing that because I know it now leads nowhere.

Strychnine is freely available in Pakistan and can be used as a recreational drug.

The loss of David's luggage probably (possibly?) including his passport and Pakistan mobile phone, and the ways and means to financially survive is a real annoyance to say the least.

He paid for his airline ticket using a credit card, that needs to be followed up.....ie how did he settle his accounts?

He paid in cash for 5 nights at the Travelodge Hotel in Ealing, I am certain he was due to go back there.

One very big thing.......I have done the very same walk up that path in very similar conditions and I started in the car park and not at the Clarence, anybody unfit and not dressed for the occasion would have had real difficulties even getting to where David did.
I was absolutely knackered and panting for breath most of the way, and I stopped several times to catch my breath but got tired out quickly after that. I was with the producer of the documentary and we both got soaked even though we were both wearing properly good outdoor wet weather clothing.

What I am saying is that yes, that walk could have killed him in combination with the strychnine.
 
Thank you Jeremy for taking the time to respond at what must be a very difficult time for you. It would have been very interesting to hear more details about the letters you received from David, but I respect your decision not to go into it if you don't feel it can add anything of substance.

Interesting about your theory that the walk along with the strychnine might have killed him. Am I correct in thinking that you suspect he may possibly have used strychnine for recreational use?
 
I wonder if perhaps he left the luggage in his hotel room on Ealing and it was taken by staff there after the time he had paid for was up? I hope the police have tried following that up.

Was it not stated in the documentary that David didn't have a credit card?
 
Looking on Google maps there's a park around the corner from the travel lodge in Ealing called Walpole park on Mattock Lane. Might he have dumped his suitcase and belongings in the lake? It's odd that he wasn't wearing his glasses that he wore on the plane. Might that have been an attempt at not being recognised by someone? There's a moment as he's walking through Piccadilly station where he looks ahead, falters, decides to continue, then does an abrupt turn and strides off in another direction. There was a man walking towards him but I can't tell if he's wearing a suit or a uniform.
 

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