Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[CoverMeCagney]

Get t'kettle on, folks. It's time!

Channel 4 10pm.

 

[Spyder84]

Wow. What a documentary

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Well, I thought that was well put together, it's not often I sit down and watch an entire program but I was gripped.. Feel satisfied that "our" investigation here pretty much mirrored what the police were busy doing, I think we covered everything, apart from maybe "Basil the Hatton Garden robber"!

Still so many questions to answer... Why Pakistan? Who posted his letters from California (assuming he never went there)? Where is his luggage and passport? Why book 5 days in London hotel? One of the CID ladies feels he didn't intend to die that day, could he have taken strychnine without knowing what it was? And WHY on earth Saddleworth??!

Jeremy, I think you summed up what so many families and friends feel when someone goes missing.... "coulda shoulda woulda"... I hope the family are ok with the open verdict and the fact that this puzzle will probably never fully be resolved.

 

[Spyder84]

The documentary has given me a whole new perspective, but as I have said previously, its not appropriate that we go any further with the discussion, however, tonight's documentary has opened up many more questions and presented new scenarios

P.s. I was touched at the scenes of David's funeral, very appropriately done... May he be at peace now

 

[David's Brother]

Thank you everyone for your good wishes and kind words, it means more to me than you can imagine. I am involved in moderating 2 online forums and it is so refreshing to read such mature postings in such a sensitive topic.
I would like to ask that you / we continue to post about David if you don't mind? There is still much to talk about and I would be delighted that the discussion continue. Like all forums, if there is something I am unhappy about I will let the Admins know.
Thank you,

Jeremy

 

[mbmc]

Thank you Jeremy, I hope you won't mind if I pose some questions.

I watched the documentary last night night and I agree with Spyder84 that it was nice to see David finally laid to rest, what a long journey he has had, RIP.

I know that the full story will sadly never be known, however I do feel that some of the questions could be answered by the friend of 40 years?

If he initially went to Lahore with David he surely knows why?
How did David's letters to Jeremy arrive via California, he must have a contact there?
Possibly the friend would know why David did not want anyone to know where he was?
This is really puzzling, having picked David up from the airport and taken him to the hotel, why oh why did he not report him missing? This to me is inconceivable, I would have thought that he would have been very worried?

Jeremy, I hope you can get some answers to what you are unhappy about.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Spyder84]

Sorry for such a long post - Firstly, Jeremy, thank you for giving us your blessing to continue this conversation. I have wanted to be very respectful here but after last nights documentary, there are so many questions. Please feel free to let me know if any of what I am about to say is inappropriate or you dont agree.

Okay, so I had always thought it was suicide, thats very much what everything has pointed to.
However, some aspects did not sit right with me, and now we know a lot more then we did before I want to come back to those aspects.

I found it odd that David asked for directions to the “Top of The Mountain” - I had always thought that was indicative of D meeting someone, almost as if someone had said, meet up on the mountain - The way in which D was milling around at the train station also felt like he was waiting for a certain time before setting off to the moors, but I had put that down to D potentially wanting to commit suicide after the sun had set and before it rose again - I have always thought there was something slightly religious about that - And of course the return train ticket was something that threw the suicide theory into doubt.

Now we know there was something underhand going on in Pakistan with David’s apartment being allegedly sold to someone else so many months after his death is probably ringing the biggest alarm bells.

The CCTV footage that was shown was not of someone who had intentions to end his life, this was a confident man, but I found it interesting that he seemed to be looking around an awful lot, looking to see who he was sat next too, looking at people as they moved through the station - Everything in that CCTV has really made me think that David was going to meet someone, maybe someone from his time in Pakistan and although I would say he seemed very confident, the looking around and being very observant gives the impression there was an element of worry or mild anxiety

Leaving Pakistan so suddenly must have led to David needing to seek help to handle his affairs in Pakistan seeming as he wasnt able to do so himself - He doesnt strike me as someone who would buy an apartment and then just walk away from it - I think he would have been in contact with someone who he thought he could trust to tie up the loose ends he had left when he departed so suddenly.

The Open Verdict is 100% the right verdict at this stage - But I just hope that if there was something more to this then I hope evidence emerges that may help the police to justify a secondary investigation.


I know this is a very insensitive question, but did David leave a will? Is there something contained within that, that could provide a clue? Has David’s finances been scrutinized, did he receive money with no trace of where it came from? Did he give away /lose money under odd circumstances with no trace as to what happened to it?

And exactly how did he break his leg?

As much as I would like to believe David ended his own life, because that conclusion would bring to an end what has been a difficult and awful chapter for the family, this can not be the be all and end all, there is so much more under the surface and I think we haven’t even started scratching at that surface yet.

 

[Spyder84]

Thank you Jeremy, I hope you won't mind if I pose some questions.

I watched the documentary last night night and I agree with Spyder84 that it was nice to see David finally laid to rest, what a long journey he has had, RIP.

I know that the full story will sadly never be known, however I do feel that some of the questions could be answered by the friend of 40 years?

If he initially went to Lahore with David he surely knows why?
How did David's letters to Jeremy arrive via California, he must have a contact there?
Possibly the friend would know why David did not want anyone to know where he was?
This is really puzzling, having picked David up from the airport and taken him to the hotel, why oh why did he not report him missing? This to me is inconceivable, I would have thought that he would have been very worried?

Jeremy, I hope you can get some answers to what you are unhappy about.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What doesn't sit right with me, is why did this friend not recognise David from all the media appeals, theres not a single person I know who didnt know of this, maybe its because of the industry I work in but even so, the police appeals went worldwide - I can not believe that his friend did not see the appeals and didnt think to question why David had suddenly disappeared without a word to anyone - Now I am not saying his friend had anything to do with this, but I think he must have a lot of answers

 

[ShakerSince92]

Sorry for such a long post - Firstly, Jeremy, thank you for giving us your blessing to continue this conversation. I have wanted to be very respectful here but after last nights documentary, there are so many questions. Please feel free to let me know if any of what I am about to say is inappropriate or you dont agree.

Okay, so I had always thought it was suicide, thats very much what everything has pointed to.
However, some aspects did not sit right with me, and now we know a lot more then we did before I want to come back to those aspects.

I found it odd that David asked for directions to the “Top of The Mountain” - I had always thought that was indicative of D meeting someone, almost as if someone had said, meet up on the mountain - The way in which D was milling around at the train station also felt like he was waiting for a certain time before setting off to the moors, but I had put that down to D potentially wanting to commit suicide after the sun had set and before it rose again - I have always thought there was something slightly religious about that - And of course the return train ticket was something that threw the suicide theory into doubt.

Now we know there was something underhand going on in Pakistan with David’s apartment being allegedly sold to someone else so many months after his death is probably ringing the biggest alarm bells.

The CCTV footage that was shown was not of someone who had intentions to end his life, this was a confident man, but I found it interesting that he seemed to be looking around an awful lot, looking to see who he was sat next too, looking at people as they moved through the station - Everything in that CCTV has really made me think that David was going to meet someone, maybe someone from his time in Pakistan and although I would say he seemed very confident, the looking around and being very observant gives the impression there was an element of worry or mild anxiety

Leaving Pakistan so suddenly must have led to David needing to seek help to handle his affairs in Pakistan seeming as he wasnt able to do so himself - He doesnt strike me as someone who would buy an apartment and then just walk away from it - I think he would have been in contact with someone who he thought he could trust to tie up the loose ends he had left when he departed so suddenly.

The Open Verdict is 100% the right verdict at this stage - But I just hope that if there was something more to this then I hope evidence emerges that may help the police to justify a secondary investigation.


I know this is a very insensitive question, but did David leave a will? Is there something contained within that, that could provide a clue? Has David’s finances been scrutinized, did he receive money with no trace of where it came from? Did he give away /lose money under odd circumstances with no trace as to what happened to it?

And exactly how did he break his leg?

As much as I would like to believe David ended his own life, because that conclusion would bring to an end what has been a difficult and awful chapter for the family, this can not be the be all and end all, there is so much more under the surface and I think we haven’t even started scratching at that surface yet.

Excellent post. Can I just add....the tickets.

Insists on buying the more expensive single fare from Pakistan to England going against the recommendation of the travel agent. Yet when travelling from London to Manchester buys a return train ticket. In both instances pays premium price yet his lifestyle suggests he is a saver.

For me the ticket issue either points to either confusion or he intended initially at least to return from Manchester.

 

[loopdloop]

New to forum, first post. Fascinated like many others by this very sad case of David Lytton. I actually live very close to the Dovestones Reservoir. Watched the documentary last night with great interest after following this case from the beginning. I have several questions/thoughts/ideas to share.

1. It seems like the "friend" who picked up David from Heathrow ought to have a lot more to say. It was surprising to me that the documentary did not go into more detail about his role or knowledge of the events. If he moved to Pakistan/USA in 2006 with David, as it seemed to say, then surely he knows something of the motivations for his move. He must also surely have some insight into why David flew back to Heathrow in 2016. How did David contact him? What did they talk about? Why did the documentary overlook these questions? Do the police know a lot more here than they are letting on?

2. The business of the letters being sent to David's brother from California is also very strange. Why would David want to conceal his true whereabouts? I understand David's brother Jeremy is reading this forum, so perhaps I can respectfully ask him to comment. What address in California were these letters coming from? Did Jeremy reply to these letters to the California address? One must assume that the answer is yes, otherwise, why would David keep writing. Has this address been investigated? It seems *obvious* that someone in California must have been co-ordinating this letter drop. Can anyone clarify any aspect of this?

3. What happened to David's luggage after he checked out of the hotel? Did the hotel staff notice what he took with him? What transport did he take on leaving the hotel? Where did he go? And again, did his "friend" know anything about these movements?

4. I think I read that David travelled from Picadilly Station in Manchester to Greenfield by train. Can anyone confirm this? If so, it is really a fairly long walk from the Greenfield train station to the Clarence Hotel, in addition to the further walk up the mountain. There is also a bus which he could have taken from Manchester. Did he take the bus perhaps?

5. The idea of meeting someone on that mountain seems completely implausible to me. I cannot make any sense, like everyone else, of why he would want to go there. I also cannot understand how he could be found lying peacefully in a calm position after dying from strychnine poisoning. Did he replace the contents of the thyroid medicine bottle with the strychnine? It seems hard to see how someone else could have done this and for him to them take the contents in some kind of mistake, as he surely was familiar with what the thyroid medicine looked like.

6. What possible reason could there be for a Jewish man to move to Pakistan. It doesn't make sense, unless he was there to perform a specific task.

7. What about cctv footage from when he arrived at Heathrow. None was shown on the documentary, though they had footage from when he boarded from Pakistan. Surely every passenger arriving at Heathrow is on video footage? Why was this not shown or discussed on the documentary?

I'm utterly baffled by all of this. If anyone has any responses to any of the above, I would welcome them.

Great thread by the way. Excellent work everybody.

 

[loopdloop]

Some further thoughts on David's movements from Manchester to the Clarence Hotel. According to this site:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/19/the-mystery-corpse-of-saddleworth-moor/

his timeline was as follows: "At EalingBroadway he bought a tube ticket to London Euston, arriving at9.50am. From here he purchased a return ticket to ManchesterPiccadilly and boarded the 10am train. Once the train arrived at thestation at 12.07pm, he spent 56 minutes wandering about, visitingBoots and Marks & Spencer and buying a sandwich. Then he left thestation and disappeared from CCTV range. At 2pm he walked intothe Clarence Hotel pub in Greenfield and asked landlord Mel Robinsonin a polite, placeless accent for directions to the “top of themountain”. "

Can anyone confirm if there are any problems with any of these times? If not, and the times are correct, then it is hard to see how he got to the Clarence Hotel so quickly by train. He was pictured on CCTV leaving Picadilly station at 13:03pm. To get to the Clarence by train he would have had to walk to Victoria Station, which is a solid 10 minute walk. Now I don't know about the timetable from December 2015, but if he made that journey tomorrow, which is a Friday, then the first direct train from Victoria to Greenfield Station after 13:13 is not until 13:54. It would arrive at Greenfield at 14:20, and it is then a walk of around 15 minutes to get to the Clarence, meaning one would not arrive until at least sometime after 2:30pm.

He could have made the journey by a different train (say to Staybridge) and then taken a bus, but even with an alternative like this, it's not possible to make it to the Clarence by 2pm.

So. Are those times reported in the telegraph correct? Was it really as early as 2pm that he arrived at the Hotel?

If so....how did he make the connections so fast? Maybe the timetable was different in late 2015. But right now, it couldn't be done....

 

[Spyder84]

New to forum, first post. Fascinated like many others by this very sad case of David Lytton. I actually live very close to the Dovestones Reservoir. Watched the documentary last night with great interest after following this case from the beginning. I have several questions/thoughts/ideas to share.

1. It seems like the "friend" who picked up David from Heathrow ought to have a lot more to say. It was surprising to me that the documentary did not go into more detail about his role or knowledge of the events. If he moved to Pakistan/USA in 2006 with David, as it seemed to say, then surely he knows something of the motivations for his move. He must also surely have some insight into why David flew back to Heathrow in 2016. How did David contact him? What did they talk about? Why did the documentary overlook these questions? Do the police know a lot more here than they are letting on?

2. The business of the letters being sent to David's brother from California is also very strange. Why would David want to conceal his true whereabouts? I understand David's brother Jeremy is reading this forum, so perhaps I can respectfully ask him to comment. What address in California were these letters coming from? Did Jeremy reply to these letters to the California address? One must assume that the answer is yes, otherwise, why would David keep writing. Has this address been investigated? It seems *obvious* that someone in California must have been co-ordinating this letter drop. Can anyone clarify any aspect of this?

3. What happened to David's luggage after he checked out of the hotel? Did the hotel staff notice what he took with him? What transport did he take on leaving the hotel? Where did he go? And again, did his "friend" know anything about these movements?

4. I think I read that David travelled from Picadilly Station in Manchester to Greenfield by train. Can anyone confirm this? If so, it is really a fairly long walk from the Greenfield train station to the Clarence Hotel, in addition to the further walk up the mountain. There is also a bus which he could have taken from Manchester. Did he take the bus perhaps?

5. The idea of meeting someone on that mountain seems completely implausible to me. I cannot make any sense, like everyone else, of why he would want to go there. I also cannot understand how he could be found lying peacefully in a calm position after dying from strychnine poisoning. Did he replace the contents of the thyroid medicine bottle with the strychnine? It seems hard to see how someone else could have done this and for him to them take the contents in some kind of mistake, as he surely was familiar with what the thyroid medicine looked like.

6. What possible reason could there be for a Jewish man to move to Pakistan. It doesn't make sense, unless he was there to perform a specific task.

7. What about cctv footage from when he arrived at Heathrow. None was shown on the documentary, though they had footage from when he boarded from Pakistan. Surely every passenger arriving at Heathrow is on video footage? Why was this not shown or discussed on the documentary?

I'm utterly baffled by all of this. If anyone has any responses to any of the above, I would welcome them.

Great thread by the way. Excellent work everybody.

Excellent points, and welcome aboard. You've actually given me food for thought, is it possible D was going up to the moors to retrieve something? Maybe he was meeting someone who was going to help him.......? I cant get away from the possibility he may have been meeting someone, every journey a person takes has 1 of 2 purposes, either you go on a journey alone to complete a task or a leisure activity, or you go on a journey to meet someone and then complete a task. We can say hand on heart that D wasn't after hiking through the moors for leisure, he was dressed for the high street not the hills, he may have been wanting to complete a task, such as suicide, and we can not say either way on that given the facts, or he was going to meet someone.. I am also utterly baffled and I think there is a major clue out there somewhere that if discovered will be the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

[OracleOne]

Hi, I'm a new member and this is my first post. Absolutely fascinating case! Have read extensively and watched the channel 4 documentary twice. As good as the documrntary was, I can't help feeling there are unanswered questions that could have been more fully covered in the programme. I realise time is of a premium in a 1 hour slot, but feel some scenes didn't really add much and could have been cut, leaving more time to adequately explain some areas. Or perhaps that was deliberate. Maybe we aren't being told everything for whatever reason.

My thoughts:

1: The news about property ownership and transferring 100,000 into the account of the person who is the registered owner of his home in Pakistan, and what had happened to that money, wasn't made very clear. If I understand correctly, it is thought the recipient bought land with it, but apparently not on David's behalf. All the police said is "its been spent". Surely that needs fully investigating?

2: Why was he in such a panic to leave Pakistan? Was his life in danger?

3: Had he normal levels of Thyroxine in his blood, to show he was regularly taking his medication? If not, he may have been very confused. Were they tablets or capsules? If capsules, someone could have replaced the thyroxine powder with strychnine.

4: It is believed he regularly used internet cafes in Pakistan. Might he have been in contact with someone in the Manchester area and arranged to meet them? His movements around Picadilly train station gave the appearance... to me at least, that he was looking/ waiting for someone. After waiting an hour for them to turn up, he decided to leave.

5: If, as someone has said, he was of Russian decent, I do wonder if he could have been a spy, with orders to take his life if his contact didn't show up. He was highly intelligent, a loner, who changed his name and kept his whereabouts secret from his family and loved ones. In the event his contact didn't show up, had he been instructed to go to the moors where no one would disturb him?

6: If he wasn't familiar with the area of Saddleworth, he must surely have researched the area beforehand, or how would he know how to get there? If he went by public transport, he would need to know his destination.

My personal opinion... I don't think he intended to definitely take his life that day. But he knew it was a possibility he might have to, and disposed of all identification and personal possessions beforehand. Was he not caught on CCTV leaving his hotel? Did he have a suitcase with him?

Whatever the truth of the situation. I hope he is now at peace. My condolences to his family and loved ones.

 

[dotr]

Welcome to Ws all new members and everyone reading here!
:Welcome1:

 

[dotr]

Quick thought, speculation, imo.
Could a " romance scam " somehow have a part to play in this intriguing mystery?

 

[loopdloop]

I have some questions for Jeremy. I hope it is ok to ask these, and if you are able and willing to answer them, it is very much appreciated. I realise this is personal information on a public forum, so it's a kind of a grey area, so again, thank you for how ever much information you feel comfortable in providing.

I'd like to ask more about these letters that you received from David over the years. Here are my questions, in no particular order.

1. What kind of address was it? A residential address? An apartment?

2. What kind of stationery was the letter written on? The paper? The envelope? Were they typed or handwritten? If typed, were they signed?

3. You said you received about 3 per year. Would this have been consistent throughout the entire ten year period, or were there times when the exchange lapsed?

4. Did he discuss in his letters any aspects of his life that would identify where he was living? Did he describe his living place, or the area he lived? Any aspects of local life at all? Did his letters give the impression that he was actually living in California?

5. Did you reply to the letters? And if so, (I imagine you would have!), in his subsequent letters would be make reference to things that were in your letters? In other words, can you be certain he was receiving and reading your letters to him? Presumably you sent these to the California address?

6. Did you ever have any reason to suppose that it was not David writing to you, or that he had changed a lot, or anything like that?

Thanks again Jeremy for any responses you would like to make.

 

[loopdloop]

The journey that David made from Manchester to the Clarence really has me puzzled now. Some sources state that he took the train to Greenfield, which leaves from Victoria. Other sources state that police did not know how he got to the Clarence Hotel.

It is said that David had three train tickets on his body when he was found. Presumably two of these are the tickets to Euston and then to Manchester Picadilly, but what is the third ticket? If this is the ticket that was used to get out to Saddleworth, then why is there any confusion about how he got there?

But if it is the ticket, and police believe that he travelled on that train, why is there no CCTV footage of him from Victoria Station? The documentary made no mention of searching through this footage, only the footage from Picadilly.

There's something else that occurs to me here. I happen to know all of these stations and the public transport involved pretty well. David apparently went to the Information Booth at Picadilly Station, but unfortunately the person he spoke to has no recollection of the conversation. Let's suppose for a moment that he asked for directions to get to Saddleworth, if not Dovestones itself, and that he was told the best way was to take the train from Victoria Station to Greenfield Station. That seems reasonable. But in that case,the Information person would also have told him that the best way to get to Victoria was simply to go down one flight of stairs and catch the Metrolink which would take him down to Victoria Station quickly and cheaply. This is by far the best way to get there, particularly on a wintry Manchester day. It really is quite a hike across the city to get to Victoria, so it seems very unlikely to me that the information person would have recommended or even suggested walking.

But David obviously didn't take the Metro because he was shown on cctv first going out to the taxi stand and then returning inside, and exiting via the entrance to the street. SO he must have walked to Victoria. But, again, it really does seem very unlikely to me that he could have walked out of Picadilly at 1:03pm, walked down to Victoria Station, caught the train to Greenfield station, then walked all the way down to the the Clarence Hotel and arrive at 2pm. He would have had to make a very lucky connection, or it is simply out of the question. I guess it could be easily sorted out by looking at the timetable from that day. So presumably the police have done that. They must surely know one way or the other.

So, again, if he did take that train, why was there no search of the Victoria Station cctv footage? But if he didn't, how did he get to Greenfield so quickly?

Did he take a taxi? No taxi driver reported driving him there.

It also seems odd that he hung around Picadilly for so long. Why wait? Why not just set off for Saddleworth as soon as he arrived? So on the one hand, he takes his time at the station, and yet, on the other, he manages to make it to the Clarence Hotel in Greenfield, in under an hour. It doesn't make any sense, like everything else in this very strange sad story.

 

[pinklilies]

He had £130 in £10 notes in his right trouser pocket. In his left coat pocket were three train tickets from the previous morning: a single from Ealing Broadway to London Euston and a return from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...eworth-moor-in-2015-is-confirmed-david-lytton

Hi to all, it's really interesting reading everyone's thoughts and questions.
Apart from the fact he didn't have a watch on, he also wasn't wearing his glasses and neither has it been said if he wore contact lens.

Did they find any bank accounts of Davids? it was shown on the programme (on the whiteboard) that the uk bound ticket was paid by credit card. And although he was said never to cook and not own a fridge or kettle etc while here in London, the kitchen in Pakistan looked well stocked with pots/pans and a little stove on the floor. Maybe he lived with somebody there or had a housekeeper of sorts.
The programme definitely left more questions than answers.

 

[OracleOne]

I think it likely he knew the bottle contained strychnine, which is why it was kept in the box. I would assume most people would discard the box of a bottle of pills that were taken daily. By keeping the bottle inside the box he couldn't inadvertently take the strychnine. Although the box had fallen apart due to getting wet, it did look very battered as if it had been carried in his pocket for quite some time. Maybe he carried it on his person in case of an emergency?

 

[Katycat]

As Jeremy has indicated he's content for discussion to continue, I'll share the thoughts I deleted previously. I posted a long time ago about the question of how David travelled from Piccadilly to Greenfield, and others have now picked up on this too. The documentary glossed over this aspect somewhat, and the feature on the BBC website is more informative. My own view is that David was killing time in Piccadilly, before meeting someone in a pre-arranged appointment at 1pm. I think that this person must have driven him to Greenfield, because I can't see how else he could have got there by 2, assuming that the landlord had the time right. I always thought it was a little odd that he would ask for directions without buying a drink - personally in that situation I'd order a half even if I didn't particularly want one - but if someone was waiting in a car outside, that would be a reason not to do so.

The location in which the body was found is another factor that, for me, points against suicide. Why would such a private person choose to end his life in such a (relatively) public location? Surely if that was the intention, you'd walk away from the main track to somewhere more secluded? But the biggest question is: why that particular location? If it had no particular significance for David (and I tend to think that his calling it 'the mountain' suggests it didn't), perhaps it did for his companion?

I think an open verdict was the right one, given the number of unanswered questions. I am surprised that the police have concluded that there was no third party involvement, especially as we now know that David paid for 5 nights in a hotel, as well as a return ticket to London. Surely that's a powerful argument against the suicide theory? The trip to Saddleworth was clearly purposeful​, even though that purpose is obscure. If this was a suicide, it must surely have been pre-planned; and yet there are too many factors pointing in the opposite direction to conclude that was what happened with any degree of confidence. Unless, of course​, he deliberately chose to manufacture an enigma, for reasons best known to himself. It's a little far-fetched, but not impossible, I suppose. I can imagine the idea appealing to a certain kind of personality, though perhaps more readily in fiction than reality. But there's so little evidence as to motive - for any given scenario - that any theories are almost entirely speculative.



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