GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Renee110]

Yes, the prosecutor, Ben FitzGerald, really hammered this home yesterday. He was making sure the jury really got it. He asked JG to explain to this jury how a mother can do that, how a mother can walk away after discovering her daughter like that and close the door, and leave her, laying alone on the floor, to make plans to save themselves, not staying with her, holding her, being there. He made an even bigger deal of the CPR charade she carried out on Ellie's body - the way he described it was like an assault although he didn't use that word, but it evoked a truly disgusting picture - the way she had used her own daughter's dead body for her own gain, pumping away at her chest for about 5-10 minutes while on the phone to the dispatcher, all in an act, waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

And he was very derisive of the way she had a/ allowed Ellie's sister to be in the room and watch her doing this, and b/ that she had left her sister unattended to be able to go back into the room and try to wake up Ellie.

I'm afraid to say it but I think she had no feelings for Ellie. That poor child was like a Cinderella when you add up all they did, and their messages about her. Just there for her own ends - to have a relationship with BB.

BBM

I believe you are right. My mom died 6 years ago. I can now talk about her without crying. I was there with her when she died though, and I still can't talk about those moments without crying. It sounds like JG has it pretty together and talking about finding Ellie etc doesn't break her down..

 

[cottonweaver]

The thought that first came into my head was there was internal damage for awhile and when Ellie "burped" (I can't remember the exact wording) she was smelling whatever was wrong inside Ellie. JMO

No internal damage effected by the assault - so say the experts for the Pros , two of whom were pathologists. Just head injury and grabbing around the jaw AFAIK.
No pre-existing medical conditions, ie. internal disease that has been testified to.
Yes JG said yesterday that she"saw her tummy come up". A reflex reaction? IDK

ETA - Just noticed in fact that Gigi has posted just further up about acids in absence of oxygen - i think she means the cause of the smell after death.

 

[cottonweaver]

[/b]

BBM

I believe you are right. My mom died 6 years ago. I can now talk about her without crying. I was there with her when she died though, and I still can't talk about those moments without crying. It sounds like JG has it pretty together and talking about finding Ellie etc doesn't break her down..

I can relate to what you are saying, those kinds of memories are fresh.
JG isn't able to "feel" like normal, well-adjusted people. IMO....based on what is known about her. Ditto BB.

 

[Legally Bland]

I think the sun article has been updated.

Mr FitzGerald cited one particularly abusive text from Butler in which he told her: "Keep going on about dead babies you mental c*** ... You ain't dying so *advertiser censored** off.. ... You were warned....*advertiser censored***** rot you childless baron (sic) hopefully for future kids c***....I don't love you at all just hate now you'll see.. And you know it. *advertiser censored** off you fat disgusting dog b**** c***."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ghter-and-claims-he-is-a-bloody-good-dad.html

 

[cottonweaver]

190 times JG has visited BB since he was remanded in custody after his arrest. :0

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I read that. She is such a muppet. On the one hand she tries to minimise the relationship as she did today saying she didn't think they would be together in the future. "......doubted whether they could be in a relationship again." Then same day she says she is absolutely committed and loves him .

Handy prison data shows her ongoing devotion over the last 2 years he has been inside. Once a week every week, sometimes more!

 

[Renee110]

Apologies to anyone who is SQUEAMISH. or would rather not deal with the nastier sides of death. It is part of the investigation and Court Case.

Same here. It's that unmistakable smell after a few hours that I was edging onto. Perhaps it was that same 'unmistakable' smell/odour that we're on about. And if so. That would mean that Ellie had passed for a while at the least a few hours.
As decomposition begins in the gut.


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I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so someone else may have brought this up.

I would assume if she had been dead a few hours, she would have started rigor mortis. Ambulance EMT's would know this.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think the sun article has been updated.

What do you reckon to this Legally?

Gray insisted: "That's absolutely not true. I fought for six years, had to drag myself for six years, knowing baby Ellie was growing up with someone else.

"All I wanted was my baby. I still want that now. I still haven't accepted Ellie has gone.

"I don't believe she's gone. I don't think I would be here now if I believed she's gone.

"I don't know what would happen."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-good-dad.html

 

[Gigi-G]

I can't remember seeing these texts before. BBC this time.

OMG what a barsteward! >:0

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[Legally Bland]

What do you reckon to this Legally?



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-good-dad.html

I think it's just words to convey to the jury they have real emotions over Ellie's death. They've both mentioned suicide. I think they may be struggling with the sympathy angle, though.

 

[Gigi-G]

No internal damage effected by the assault - so say the experts for the Pros , two of whom were pathologists. Just head injury and grabbing around the jaw AFAIK.
No pre-existing medical conditions, ie. internal disease that has been testified to.
Yes JG said yesterday that she"saw her tummy come up". A reflex reaction? IDK

ETA - Just noticed in fact that Gigi has posted just further up about acids in absence of oxygen - i think she means the cause of the smell after death.

It could of very well of seemed much like a burp. As JG breathed her 'air' into Ellie. And her tummy raised. Because there was nothing viable to use the air. The lungs would of then deflated. Also releasing any unexpelled air also. Which would of reacted with the bile acid in the stomach 'venting'.

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[Gigi-G]

I think the sun article has been updated.

Why does she sit there and defend the twat!

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[Gigi-G]

I read that. She is such a muppet. On the one hand she tries to minimise the relationship as she did today saying she didn't think they would be together in the future. "......doubted whether they could be in a relationship again." Then same day she says she is absolutely committed and loves him .

Handy prison data shows her ongoing devotion over the last 2 years he has been inside. Once a week every week, sometimes more!

"Throws arms in the air n gives up"
These 2 need to be kept as far apart as humanly possible. They are worse than evil. It makes me rage! I'm glad I'm not there... I think I'd have to go in wearing duct tape over my mouth

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so someone else may have brought this up.

I would assume if she had been dead a few hours, she would have started rigor mortis. Ambulance EMT's would know this.

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[cottonweaver]

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so someone else may have brought this up.

I would assume if she had been dead a few hours, she would have started rigor mortis. Ambulance EMT's would know this.

Yes and as the Prosecution is going with sometime before BB called JG we have to believe that they know best. ( Brown implied this in cross of BB - thread 1)
I just had a quick look , it says RM in kids is not as perceptible as they have low muscle mass, even though it is still occurring.

This is what has been testified by pros experts :
expert a - skull fracture 1-6 hrs before death
expert b - death instantaneous with the actual assault.
BB agreed facts - he called JG at 12.46,
BB said it "was a while" before he called JG as he lay on the floor, shellshocked or wtte. So that's vague. He reckons he last saw E alive c. 11.30am

Crying. It just took me a while to get up off the floor. I don't remember everything about Ellie. I tried desperately hard to repress that memory so it's not easy for me but at one point I contacted Jennie."

 

[Gigi-G]

Rigor Mortis can occur anytime between 2-6 hours after death.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

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[Gigi-G]

I'm here.. just hanging.

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[cottonweaver]

I think it's just words to convey to the jury they have real emotions over Ellie's death. They've both mentioned suicide. I think they may be struggling with the sympathy angle, though.

BIB Yes, they haven't had enough practice !

She's struggling today, that was all garbled. "I don't believe she's gone. I don't think I would be here now if I believed she's gone.

"I don't know what would happen.""

all hot air.

 

[cottonweaver]

there's loads more extracts across the sites

She said: "He was not a nice boyfriend to me but he was a bloody good dad. He was happy to be a stay-at-home husband."

BIB...but not happy to be a stay at home father?

"Ben is my family. I do love him. We have been through a miscarriage of justice together and I was always grateful to Ben because he got me my (baby) back and we have both lost a little girl," she said.

BIB somewhat impersonal?

Gray said: 'Ben was not violent to me and he certainly was not violent to my (daughter) and I maintain that 100 per cent.'

What's the adage - never trust a person who has to quantify their own honesty or wtte

Mr FitzGerald suggested: "Mr Butler saw Ellie's bad behaviour as similar to your erratic behaviour. He thought you were cut from the same cloth."He read out a series of text messages from 2013 in which 18.5.16 Butler blamed Ellie for Gray's "mental" behaviour and said: "I hate you both".In another, he wrote: "You never listen. Your mouth. The way you react and come across a lot like Ellie. You will end up hurt.".Gray described the suggestion as "bullsh--" and "ridiculous"

BIB She hasn't an answer for that one.

She told jurors he was a 'laddie man' who could be violent to other men when he was out but not to her.

Never heard a violent fighting man described as a laddie - she minimises everything.

Gray went on to admit she was "out of order" when she wrote a list of 10 points about Ellie's bad behaviour accusing her of lying, being "constantly manipulative" and untrustworthy.

That's all she has to say about writing that list about her dead daughter? Just a copy of BB's testimony too.



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...y-skull-injuries-foster-care?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Tortoise]

If you were in court you would know without a doubt she left the witness stand and finished her evidence, with zero credibility. At one point some members of the jury could not stop themselves from laughing, obviously trying very hard to disguise it by putting their heads down. She went so far over the top, there is no hope for her.

Nothing that she has said has been even faintly convincing.

FitzG was brilliant.

 

[Legally Bland]

That's reassuring to know Tortoise, thank you.

 

[Tortoise]

JG's lump on her head - this was just hilarious.

Prosecutor returned to this evidence today. He asked JG if she maintained that she had bumped her head on her bedroom door frame on her birthday, 17th October 2013, while trying on a new dress and getting her heel caught in the carpet.

Yes she says, she was wearing very high wedge heels that caught in the carpet.

And FitzG continues, this is the same day that BB has found her diary and has been texting her from the early morning until just before she gets in from work, telling her it's over for them and she's had it, and f'ing this and that. The usual.

Yes, she says, but she walks in from work and they are arguing by text and the girls are completely unaware this is going on, and they are hiding behind a stack of presents and cake for her on the table and they jump out and say "surprise mummy!"

And FitzG continues, the following morning, with a visible lump on your head, you told your colleague you tripped on some steps when you had wine and takeaway.

Yes she says, let me just show you, and she produces the photo showing her bedroom doorway and close by is the bottom of the stairs. See she says, they're close enough, we did have wine and takeaway that night.

FitzG ends with 'did you not stop and think, in 2013, it's so strange that we're always bumping our heads in this house?'