GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #12

[whiterum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the "state" of the flat has ever been clarified. People have speculated both that it was disordered or unusually tidy, but it's just that - speculation.

I think it was what the father said that gave the impression that the flat was unusually tidy.

David Yeates, 63, an IT specialist, told The Sunday Telegraph:
"We knew what the flat was like. We know what it's normally like.
"We know what she does and doesn't do.
"The state of the flat indicated that she'd been abducted. Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday

 

[Cherwell]

I think it was what the father said that gave the impression that the flat was unusually tidy.

Yes, you see to me that's completely ambiguous.

"We knew what the flat was like. We know what it's normally like. We know what she does and doesn't do."

This first bit doesn't tell me anything, because he doesn't elaborate.

The second bit -

"The state of the flat indicated that she'd been abducted. Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday."

Is he saying that it was still untidy? that Jo had had no chance to carry out the planned clean-up? At that point no one knew whether she had been 'abducted' on the Friday night or later on in the weekend. Or were there signs of a disturbance? It's really not clear to me.

 

[kINGFISHER]

Just found this An intelligent person makes a good serial killer as their kills tend to be controlled. They leave a tidy crime scene and can keep an oridinary home life.



keys and mobile phone were left in the tidy flat,
Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday

 

[kINGFISHER]

Just found this An intelligent person makes a good serial killer as their kills tend to be controlled. They leave a tidy crime scene and can keep an oridinary home life.



keys and mobile phone were left in the tidy flat,
Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday
Edit/Delete Message

This makes me think they have not got the right man, but VT is involved somehow

 

[PolkSaladAnnie]

"The state of the flat indicated that she'd been abducted. Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday."

Is he saying that it was still untidy? that Jo had had no chance to carry out the planned clean-up? At that point no one knew whether she had been 'abducted' on the Friday night or later on in the weekend. Or were there signs of a disturbance? It's really not clear to me.

Good morning, Cherwell. I do so enjoy your responses. The excerpt you have in italics (as quoted above) is fairly straightforward to me - so tho I'm not saying you're wrong ... I'm merely suggesting my interpretation. Indeed, any sentence may be pulled apart and made-to-fit theories, however I believe David & Theresa knew their daughter better than anyone. That Jo had told family, colleagues and friends she'd be spending the weekend alone - get some cooking done - tidy up the flat ... meant ... just that.

So we know Jo especially planned to be "in" all weekend to do her "domestic chores". Nothing was done. Tabak took the pizza ... forgot the receipt. Maybe he took it to eat? Maybe he shared it with TM the next day? Maybe he disposed of it together with the sock - never to be found again?

It had to be very, very evident no tidying occurred for her parents and Greg to have reacted to the "state" of the flat. No cooking; no tidying up. All her belongings were there - including phone, keys, coat, etc. Her phone is a huge tell-tale sign (cell ping towers/records). Jo was discovered in exactly the same clothes as seen on cctv on the Friday evening, sans coat, a sock and her shoes.

Neighbours and previous tenants clearly confirmed (as do the crime scene photos) that movement between the two flats would go completely unnoticed. Looking *too* much into a very clear and specific statement by her parents is not that ambiguous to me, of course.

Does anyone else see that Jo's parents knew she was going to tidy up; nothing was done; Jo was in the same same clothes and zero movement/response tracked since her estimated arrival home - circa 9pm Friday 17th Dec?

 

[veggiefan]

That he was *the only* tenant to move out (claiming disturbances) is also telling to me. He wished to distance himself from the scene of the crime.

According to the father of EW, it was TM who wanted to move out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8276162/Jo-Yeates-did-not-know-Vincent-Tabak-says-her-father.html

"Michael Williams, the father of the two sisters, said that [VT]'s girlfriend had been anxious to move out of her own flat because of its proximity to the scene of the unsolved murder."

No one else moved out!

How do we know? I've never heard anything about anyone in the property other than the four flats we know about (GH, CJ, VT+TM, JY+GR).

 

[veggiefan]

1. Why do murderers murder? There is seldom reasonable explanation and I've detailed WHY I believe Tabak killed JO. He was caught red handed doing something horrendous. Peeping Tom and Stalking is *not* a "relatively minor offense"..

It's a lot less serious than murder. Unless children are involved, a person with no previous convictions is rarely given a prison sentence for being a voyeur.

The Bath student previously mentioned got a 150-hour community service order. Others have been given supervision orders and/or required to attend a sex offender programme. Even a man who admitted to 47 offences of voyeuristic videoing did not receive a custodial sentence in Kent last December.

That's why I think that if some sort of spy camera was involved in this case, VT must have suddenly become totally irrational in choosing to murder rather than admit to a relatively minor (if very shameful) offence.

Of course, that's possible, but his background doesn't suggest anything other than a very rational person.

To be brutally frank, I think that someone who was discovered to be a voyeur, and who was too ashamed to face up to the consequences, would be more likely to commit suicide than murder.

 

[Cherwell]

The excerpt you have in italics (as quoted above) is fairly straightforward to me - so tho I'm not saying you're wrong ... I'm merely suggesting my interpretation.

I don't see how I can be wrong as I have merely said I find it ambiguous. Others have concluded that the flat was tidy.

Jo was discovered in exactly the same clothes as seen on cctv on the Friday evening, sans coat, a sock and her shoes.

Call me Mr Picky, but I don't think this has ever been officially confirmed. One of the many things that have never been made clear to the public, perhaps for good reason.

 

[Suspicious Minds]

"Yes, you see to me that's completely ambiguous".

I have always thought that too ... if the flat had been found tidy it could have meant that JY was still alive on the Saturday and had tidied up as planned surely.

 

[kINGFISHER]

QUOTE. The Keys and mobile phone were on the table in the tidy flat

QUOTE. Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday
QUOTE We knew what the flat was like. ..... . IN OTHER WORDS WE KNOW THE FLAT WAS NOT TIDY.
QUOTE. We know what it's normally like ..... IN OTHER WORDS WE ARE AWARE OF HOW IT WOULD NORMALLY BE NOT TIDY ETC.
QUOTE. We know what she does and doesn't do.... IN OTHER WORDS WE kNOW HOW SHE DOES THINGS AROUND THE FLAT AND WHAT SHE DOES NOT DO .
SO THINGS APPEARED DIFFERENT TO THEM .I CANT IMAGINE HOW THEY MUST HAVE FELT . THEY ARE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE SO OBSERVING THE CHANGES IN THE FLAT AND KNOWING HOW KILLERS WORK THEY IMMEDIATLY KNEW JO HAD BEEN ABDUCTED IMAGINE ONE OF YOUR CHILDREN TAKEN AND THE KILLER HAD JUST GONE AROUND THEIR HOME TIDYING UP HOW CHILLING WOULD THAT BE.

QUOTE ...We knew she had been abducted.

QUOTE. CHERWELL.....He is saying that it was still untidy? that Jo had no chance to carry out the planned clean-up? At that point no one knew whether she had been 'abducted' on the Friday night or later on in the weekend. Or were there signs of a disturbance? It's really not clear to me....

THE POLICE THINK IT WAS 17TH NOT SEEN SINCE, PROBABLY HAVE SOME EVIDENCE ITS IMNMATERIAL ANYWAY THE FLAT WAS NOT AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND JOs PARENTS KNEW THAT....An intelligent person makes a good serial killer as their kills tend to be controlled. They leave a tidy crime scene and can keep an ordinary home life.

VT COULD GO DOWN AND THEN THEY MAY FIND AFTER A WHILE HE IS NOT GUILTY OF THE MURDER SO THE MURDERER STILL REMAINS FREE.

 

[Cherwell]

To sum up, I think we can accept that the flat was not how the parents expected to find it. But how did they expect to find it? Untidy, because that was how it usually was? Or tidy, because Jo had said she was going to have a clean-up?

QUOTE. The Keys and mobile phone were on the table in the tidy flat

Could you give a source for this, please.

 

[notsure]

Regarding the state of the flat. GR was home for several hours before notifying her parents. I don't know how long it took them to get there. By that time, presumably GR would have moved things around, prepared food for himself, etc., so things would not be exactly the same as when the murderer left (if he had been in the flat). So it is intriguing to know what the parents meant by knowing immediately that something bad had happened from the state of the place.

 

[Suspicious Minds]

Regarding the state of the flat. GR was home for several hours before notifying her parents. I don't know how long it took them to get there. By that time, presumably GR would have moved things around, prepared food for himself, etc., so things would not be exactly the same as when the murderer left (if he had been in the flat). So it is intriguing to know what the parents meant by knowing immediately that something bad had happened from the state of the place.

My thoughts exactly, have always wondered about this statement from the parents. As apparently GR had been back for a few hours and not noticed what the parents noticed within a very short time of arriving at the flat.

 

[Cherwell]

See my post 88.

Reading back through earlier threads, I was most taken by the suggestion that they realised a snowboard or surfboard bag was missing. In other words, something horribly like a body bag.

 

[kINGFISHER]

NOSTURE
Regarding the state of the flat. GR was home for several hours before notifying her parents. I don't know how long it took them to get there. By that time, presumably GR would have moved things around, prepared food for himself, etc., so things would not be exactly the same as when the murderer left (if he had been in the flat). So it is intriguing to know what the parents meant by knowing immediately that something bad had happened from the state of
the place.

HE COULD HAVE GONE OUT SO NOTHING WAS MOVED MUCH. BUT I AM PRETTY SURE THEY WOULD HAVE CONSULTED WITH G BEFORE THEY CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOMTHING THAT NEITHER J OR G WOULD HAVE DONE AND IT WOULD TAKE A MOTHER TO NOTICE THAT.

 

[veggiefan]

The most comprehensive account of the father's observations about the flat seems to be in the Mirror of 27th December:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/12/27/was-joanna-yeates-killer-caught-on-cctv-on-bridge-115875-22809044/

David said: “We knew what the flat was like. We know what she does and doesn’t do.

“We were 100% convinced within 30 minutes of arriving she had been abducted.”

He said there were “other factors, other reasons that we’ve been asked by the police not to go into”, that left him convinced she had been snatched.

David added: “We had grave concerns based on what was in the flat. We knew she had not gone of her own volition. We came to the conclusion it was unlikely she would have been found alive.

“The state of the flat indicated she had been abducted. Jo and Greg were quite untidy and we knew she was planning on tidying up on Saturday.

“On top of that she did not respond to Greg’s texts that night and they were both devoted to each other.”

---

It seems to me that the significant point is the "grave concerns based on what was in the flat" ... "other factors, other reasons that we’ve been asked by the police not to go into".

I very much doubt that this would have been a spy camera, otherwise VT would have been arrested much earlier. It could well be signs of a struggle, though.

 

[goldielox]

My interpretation of what JY's parents said about the flat I took at face value ie something about what they saw or found in the flat when they arrived led them to believe she'd been abducted. Nothing they said implied to me that the flat had been tidied up, and I still don't think there is anything to imply that in what they said. Likewise there's nothing to imply the flat was any less tidy than usual either.

Greg was in that flat for four hours before raising the alarm. He said at the time he found her keys etc but at no time did HE say there was anything more about the state of the flat to raise his suspicions. Perhaps he did notice things but chose not to make these public, or the police told him not to mention these publically...as the police had advised JR's parents not to too.

When JR's parents arrived they were entering the flat already knowing their daughter was missing hence they would have entered the flat immediately looking for signs from the start, hence why they probably said they knew within half an hour things weren't right in that flat.

It seems to have almost become folklore that the flat was found in an unusually tidy state. Unless someone has inside information that this was indeed the case then it's nothing more than wild speculation and folklore. The the only thing we do know is it was stated by the police .or initially anyway..that there were no signs of a struggle in the flat.

 

[veggiefan]

QUOTE. The Keys and mobile phone were on the table in the tidy flat

Not according to GR, the person who found them:

"I went through her bag, which she had left on the table and found it had all the stuff she would need to take with her, things like her purse and her keys."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340586/Boyfriend-missing-architect-Jo-Yeates-sobs-I-want-Christmas.html

 

[kINGFISHER]

Interesting Vegefan

QUOTE
We had grave concerns based on what was in the flat. Something missing, something left or something changed , we might know the exact details at some point.

 

[kINGFISHER]

PS whose car was removed next door , any connection with CS , A&S, or just coincidence.
Police spokeswoman C S said: "The response from the public has been overwhelming. We are working our way through calls that are now into their thousands.