GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[edgedweller]

It sounds like their forensic evidence is pretty strong, but even if it isn't - to strangle someone from the front is something you can only do if you mean it - to look into someone's eyes while they are dying, and knowing you can stop any time... but he DIDN'T.

 

[bijoux]

Actus reus and mens rea are all that are needed to secure conviction for a crime.

Layman's terms please, my Latin is rusty.

 

[Colombo]

... but they're doing an excellent job of painting a portrait of a talented actor (or a detached, crazy person )

or is this like the picture painted of Colin Stagg, Barry George, Amanda Knox etc etc etc ????

I cannot wait to hear the defence version of events...

 

[Sammyme]

Among the text messages or comments to friends or colleagues, this stood out for me:

rupertevelynRupert Evelyn

"Dreading the weekend because it was first time she was left alone" Jo Yeates told colleague Elisabeth Chandler

It set me thinking. From this and some of the other comments coming out today (she seemed bored; she seemed at a loose end; in Clifton ville on my todd! etc), it looks as if Joanna was, at the least, concerned about being on her own that weekend. That could have been because she feared the separation and loneliness of being without her fiance or it might have been that she was actually frightened of being on her own at home: dreading is a strong word.

It is also significant that she did not actually say it in her texts or comments to her male work colleagues or friends but only to this one female colleague. I read in another report somewhere this morning (cannot remember where, or find it now) that that message was to her best friend - suggesting a secret nagging anxiety she had that she would not voice to the general circle of friends but only to her closest one. If Joanna was in an anxious, worried, even agitated, state of mind about being safe on her own in the flat that weekend, it could make her vulnerable and open up a number of possibilities as to how she might have acted or reacted when she got home. Was she spooked by something or someone she saw, or reacted uncharacteristically in a panic-stricken way to an approach or a noise or a voice, was she anxious about the cat and keen to find it for the companionship or did she even seek some help or contact in the immediate neighbourhood because of her fear?

 

[FiestyFairy]

me too (surfboard bag) ...


Police also found a duvet in the car and some red and orange pillowcases.

perhaps he could have used the pillowcases to cover her head and blood leaked through (from her nose)... sorry to be so graphic - and he used the duvet over the rest of her?....

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...t-for-her-life-115875-23481349/#ixzz1abyaSGOG

Or was he going to try to take her and set up a little comfy spot somewhere?

 

[bijoux]

Or was he going to try to take her and set up a little comfy spot somewhere?

Is it possible the duvet and pillow slips were from JY's bed and that's what her mom saw was missing? Maybe the duvet and pillows there now (as per photo we saw yesterday) were replacements?

 

[Cherwell]

Is it possible the duvet and pillow slips were from JY's bed and that's what her mom saw was missing?

Could be ... the surf bag was a similar train of thought. If their duvet was in his car that would be pretty conclusive, no?

But if it was any old duvet, and there no suspicious traces on it, then it would not be a very unusual thing to have in the car during severe winter weather. There are 2 blankets in my car even now, in case of emergency - accident, breakdown etc.

ETA But why would they replace the duvet & pillows ?

 

[aneurin]

Layman's terms please, my Latin is rusty.

OK. And it's legal Latin anyway. Only invented to impress the peasants. As in actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea or whatever.

It's a basic principle of the criminal law that in order to secure a conviction you need proof of both actus reus and mens rea: i.e. you need to demonstrate that the accused (a) committed a criminal act and (b) were aware of doing so. It is not necessary to explain why they did so. It obviously helps (if you're a prosecutor) to be able to give a reason why they did so, if only because it makes it so much easier in such situations to persuade a jury that X meets the requirements of both (a) and (b), but it isn't necessary.

 

[FiestyFairy]

I think some people may be focusing on the bathroom because of the amount of forensic activity that clearly took place there. But this will have been done as a matter of routine, because it's an obvious place where the perp (whoever that would turn out to be) might have cleaned himself up. The forensic team would look there as a priority - we don't yet know if they found anything.

I'm not convinced the bathroom was tested any more thoroughly than any other room. The black forensic power adheres to oil and grease for example from the human body. Baths, showers and shower doors are often heavily covered in oils and gease. This would give the powder lots to adhere to

 

[Colombo]

if the duvet did come from jos flat if hes the cold premeditated psycho then why did he keep it? then again why didnt he take the body to a place where she would not be found ? then again why move the body at all if he was convinced that he had left no evidence?

is he a psycho who planned it?, or a truly split personality ?...and maybe that is his defence....or dare I say it ...has he been set up?

although the prosecution outline seemed to be quite persuasive ...theres somethings that just dont add up

 

[aneurin]

or is this like the picture painted of Colin Stagg, Barry George, Amanda Knox etc etc etc ????

No, because neither Colin Stagg, Barry George, nor Amanda Knox ever admitted responsibility for killing anyone. Vincent Tabak on the other hand, has pled guilty to manslaughter, so there is no doubt that he actually killed Joanna Yeates. All that remains to be decided is the precise nature of his responsibility for her death.

 

[Sonata]

I have to say, I am having a lot of trouble figuring this one out at all. There is something about VT and his behaviour that makes me wonder whether he would be capable of outright murder.

It bothers me that he has no history of violence that we know of. It bothers me that he seemed to confused in the aftermath - not socially, but in his frantic web searches. It bothers me that someone who seems so stable could be capable of just snapping and so able to switch back to normal in the following days. The whole thing just bothers me. I am not saying I do not think he is guilty, I just feel like there is significantly more to it than we know.

 

[Colombo]

No, because neither Colin Stagg, Barry George, nor Amanda Knox ever admitted responsibility for killing anyone. Vincent Tabak on the other hand, has pled guilty to manslaughter, so there is no doubt that he actually killed Joanna Yeates. All that remains to be decided is the precise nature of his responsibility for her death.

point taken ...but I was referring to the picture painted of them

the defence case will be very interesting ....

 

[Colombo]

I have to say, I am having a lot of trouble figuring this one out at all. There is something about VT and his behaviour that makes me wonder whether he would be capable of outright murder.

It bothers me that he has no history of violence that we know of. It bothers me that he seemed to confused in the aftermath - not socially, but in his frantic web searches. It bothers me that someone who seems so stable could be capable of just snapping and so able to switch back to normal in the following days. The whole thing just bothers me. I am not saying I do not think he is guilty, I just feel like there is significantly more to it than we know.

will the defence claim multiple personailty disorder? anyone seen / read Primal Fear?

 

[Robin Hood]

will the defence claim multiple personailty disorder? anyone seen / read Primal Fear?

I wondered if multiple personality may come in to play. Ken Bianchi, the hillside strangler is a good example.

 

[bijoux]

ETA But why would they replace the duvet & pillows ?

I only ask the question because yesterday I thought I noticed that the pillow on the left side of the bed showed a tag, in other words there was no pillow case on it, which I found curious. I also thought it curious that the duvet on top looked so pristine and newish.

i.e. you need to demonstrate that the accused (a) committed a criminal act and (b) were aware of doing so.

Thank you, that's helpful.

 

[bax]

Was just thinking...if VT had any information JY staying home alone during the weekend?
He knew that JY lived together with GR.
He saw JY alone that evening .
If he killed her, then there had been a possibility to get distracted by homecoming boyfriend of JY. But seems VT was sure there was´nt any distraction to come.
So is there possibility that somebody told him that the neighbour girl is alone or maybe that information came from JY personally (on a doorway etc.)
How do we know that the body was dumped in the place where it was found exactly in the same evening of killing?
Couldnt the body stay in the apartment during saturday or inside VT car?
It was said during the next days after the killing VT looked on google earth the place where they later found the body. Maybe during the next days he was searching the good location where to dump the body!

 

[Sammyme]

juliareidsky Julia Reid
She asked #Vincenttabak about his Christmas. He confirmed they had been interviewed at length. Tanja felt her words were twisted
2 minutes ago

rupertevelyn Rupert Evelyn
Tanja told a friend that Jo & Greg were quieter than their predecessors

rupertevelyn Rupert Evelyn
Court now adjourned.will resume again at 1430
1 minute ago

That's interesting and answers a question I asked earlier as to whether anyone knew about previous occupants of Joanna's flat and possible awareness of them by VT. I had been speculating as to the level of awareness of Joanna and Greg by VT. It happens that some people are mentally highly tuned in to the presence and activities of near neighbours while the neighbours may be more absorbed in their own domestic life and highly unaware of others nearby and of the effects of their own activities or their pets' activities on others. Also, sometimes people who have previously suffered noise from neighbours are hyper aware of new neighbours and hyper sensitive to their presence and movements. I wonder if VT was that type of personality who could be keenly affected by neighbours and neighbour encroachment, whether by noise or the activities of a cat.

I notice too that VT apparently volunteered some remarks about the cat. One of the witnesses said that he claimed to play with the cat sometimes. Then he went on to talk about not having seen the cat that weekend but that it was back by the Sunday night. Isn't it odd for him to talk about whether he had seen the cat that weekend and even more so to go into further detail about its whereabouts and specifically when it returned? At least I think so. Too much information! But then he does seem to leak information in that way, as he did when he talked about a detached crazy person acting normally after a murder - he was talking about himself and he knew whereof he spoke. I would have a strong feeling from this that the cat figured in whatever took place on that Friday night.

People were discussing earlier in the thread about motive and the prosecution case. I think it very likely that we may never know what exact sequence of events (and for what motive) occurred on that evening because it seems that the only person alive who knows is VT and there is little sign from his actions so far that he is interested in telling the straightforward truth of it. That doesn't mean though that it is necessarily a problem for the prosecution or that there cannot be a conviction of murder. Many murders are clear and demonstrable enough even though apparently without motive or the motive may never be known.

 

[veggiefan]

How do we know that the body was dumped in the place where it was found exactly in the same evening of killing?

The body was carefully covered by leaves before it snowed. It started snowing in the middle of the night (that Friday night) so the body must have been there by midnight.

 

[aneurin]

...
How do we know that the body was dumped in the place where it was found exactly in the same evening of killing?

We don't. Presumably VT will confirm his version of events in due course.

Couldnt the body stay in the apartment during saturday or inside VT car?

In the apartment? Unlikely, TM might have noticed. In the boot of his car? Possibly, but still a bit risky.

It was said during the next days after the killing VT looked on google earth the place where they later found the body. Maybe during the next days he was searching the good location where to dump the body!

I tend to doubt that, on the basis that had he put even the slightest effort into researching a dump site, he would have come up with a better one.