GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #4

[ruined detroit]

I wonder how well these CCTV cameras work at close up in the snow. Footage I saw in some areas you could see the flakes obscuring the images.

 

[jigzy]

Yes but she didn't do anything at all that weekend. No form of traceable communication whatsoever.
It was as if she didn't exist anymore....Oh hang on a minute.....

I find it hard to believe a young socialable woman becomes a weekend recluse overnight.

OK then imagine this scenario:
If a young sociable woman has a 'fun time' whilst her bf is away, would she answer texts/calls made by him? Out of guilt perhaps she wouldn't answer.

Or, a young woman slightly bored with the company of her work mates and tired on a Friday night after a busy time leading up to Christmas and possible row with bf, goes home to prepare for a party she's hosting in 4 days' time. Bf is away so she wonders if an old friend could meet up for drinks, then feels mildly embarrassed when he doesn't reply immediately. She has an early night. She has no car to go fetch shopping for the party so on the Saturday gets down to some serious tidying and 'showcasing' the apartment instead - she can always shop for party food on Monday. So she stays in and cleans up, takes a brief trip to the recycling bins, doesn't get round to making mince pies. She doesn't always have her phone switched on. Murder takes place Saturday night. Just an example of an alternative scenario. We do not all live electronically - sometimes people just enjoy a bit of slobbing out (having a pyjama day) or get on with stuff that does not involve 'communication'.

Or maybe she went down with flu and went to bed until Sunday night...would a virus survive those sub zero temperatures and show up during autopsy?

just some random alternative thoughts.

 

[jigzy]

I haven't seen a mention of where his brother worked

It hasn't been 'mentioned'. I looked it up independently - not difficult. Something I posted originally about him was removed by mods, but that gave away his occupation. That coupled with his hobbies (similar to his brothers') meant that he was very easy to find.

 

[whitedove]

I will resurrect my initial thoughts on this case:

Greg left for Sheffield around 7pm in a car with a suspect battery. He may have had some bad news from Jo at their lunchtime meet, and stews on this all the way to Sheffield. He gets to Sheffield around 10pm, but decides he must go back and straighten things out with Jo. His car won't start again, so this time he borrows a car from his brother (pale 4x4?) and drives back to Clifton arriving around 1am on the 18th. Perhaps he finds a situation he simply can't handle, who knows, anyway a murder takes place.

As has already been pointed out, this theory requires at least passive collusion from his brother, but it is not uncommon for people to cover for relatives.

Assuming he didn't stop for petrol, his journey back to Bristol wouldn't be registered by the police, who would check the cameras for the car he drove to Sheffield in. He may have left his phone in his own car in Sheffield, probably accidentally, but in effect confirming his alibi. Any DNA evidence would be in brother's car, which he would return to Sheffield once body dumped.

Not a perfect theory, but it shows, I think, that GR can't be totally excluded as a suspect, not by us, anyway. The police may have cctv or non family eyewitness evidence that he was in Sheffield all weekend, but they aren't saying.

Yes, I ve thought of the brother covering teabreid, anything is possible, the police hav'nt given anything except saying he had receipts for the journey, but I'm sure they will have already looked at all these details.

 

[Firefly75]

I’m wondering what we can deduce about the perpetrator(s) from what we know?

Here’s what I think:
*Male (given the method, which to my mind also requires some physical strength; don’t know if strangling would be a woman’s way to kill a woman?)
*No accomplice (doesn’t seem to have made (m)any mistakes, which suggests he depended on himself to make sure it was all carried out very carefully)
*Known to victim (vitim was murdered at home, no signs of forced entry, no open windows for a stranger to get in (but we don’t know if this is true); body was removed from flat). Maybe Jo didn’t know her killer very well, but well enough to let him into her flat.
*Perp knew Jo was going to be on her own in the flat; not necessarily knew that for a long time before the murder happened. (Perhaps Jo was a bit uneasy about being on her own in the flat for the first time, so she decided to have a ‘friend’ (I am using this term very loosely here) over for a drink, chat, maybe dinner, nothing untoward – you know how it is: home alone might sound great in broad daylight when you think you’ll have time for that luxurious bath with a good book, cook whatever you want, with no one under your feet, and when your boyfriend returns, he’ll appreciate the food; she may have wanted to clean and decorate the flat just so, or go through her wardrobe, etc. But then after the pub, when the boyfriend had left, the thought of coming home to an empty (save for the cat) flat, no lights on, frightened her a bit; she may have told the perp that boyfriend was away and did he want to hang out a bit over at hers – and the perp misunderstood the situation).
*In fairly good physical condition (Jo was into sports, handwrestling etc., so it must have taken some strength to overpower her – possibly knowledge of martial arts? I think there are ways of incapacitating people without it showing on the body, does anyone know anything about that? Also, he moved the body – first out of the flat, then out of the vehicle.
*Perp is intelligent (lack of clues he left behind, lack of evidence).
*Perp has good nerves, yet not quite nerves of steel (removal of body, choice of dumping location – I’m assuming the body was meant for the quarry or somewhere further up along the biking path that’s on one of the photos nearby; the perp the got spooked, thought he might be caught red-handed, or couldn’t lift the body enough, and dumped her quickly and then disappeared).
*Perp has some considerable self-control – dumping and getting the victim out of the flat was risky, yet he didn’t freak out; he didn’t freak out after the murder, nor when the police contacted him – assuming they have done so).
*Local knowledge (I don’t think quarry was entirely coincidental, and how did he get there?)
*Perp possibly known to Jo’s family, friends, boyfriend, work colleagues… (owning up wouldn’t just mean prison but also facing Jo’s nearest and dearest; if I assume the killing was accidental, ‘in the heat of the moment’/misunderstanding, and after the initial panic, the perp started thinking logically, coldly and efficiently, and didn’t want to take the responsibility and face the music, he won’t willingly confess now either).
*Perp has access to some sort of vehicle or other means of moving the victim – certainly had that on the night.
*Perp possibly somewhat confident as he hasn’t been arrested or even openly suspected yet; LE seem confused, the press is being, well, the press – need I say more – which tells him that he must have cleaned the body and the scene pretty well of all damning evidence, nobody knows he’d seen the victim on that night, or he has a good alibi.
*Following from the above, I believe the perp is possibly very willing to help LE if he’s been contacted, as he knows that refusal or not co-operating would be viewed with suspicion, yet he feels they’ve got nothing to nail him.


That said, if the perp is a serial killer, Jo is not his first victim, he’s had lots of practice, and possibly has awesome personal charms or position of trust and appears totally respectable and harmless. However, he slipped a bit when he dumped the body.

I don’t think Jo would have been even considering two-timing or dumping her boyfriend, given what has been said about her by those who knew her. She seems balanced, with her feet firmly on the ground and lady-like. She’d just moved into that flat after living with her boyfriend before, I don’t believe she would have done so if she hadn’t wanted to.

Anyway. I don’t know who did it. I am lighting a candle in memory of Jo, and I hope she sends a signal somehow (DNA or anything else) so the perp is caught. Her family and friends are in my thoughts, too.

 

[Luna15]

I wonder how well these CCTV cameras work at close up in the snow. Footage I saw in some areas you could see the flakes obscuring the images.

Well I've always wondered how easy it has been for the police to track Greg's journey to Sheffield via CCTV (given the weather conditions)

Using this as an example, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

 

[whitedove]

OK then imagine this scenario:
If a young sociable woman has a 'fun time' whilst her bf is away, would she answer texts/calls made by him? Out of guilt perhaps she wouldn't answer.

Or, a young woman slightly bored with the company of her work mates and tired on a Friday night after a busy time leading up to Christmas and possible row with bf, goes home to prepare for a party she's hosting in 4 days' time. Bf is away so she wonders if an old friend could meet up for drinks, then feels mildly embarrassed when he doesn't reply immediately. She has an early night. She has no car to go fetch shopping for the party so on the Saturday gets down to some serious tidying and 'showcasing' the apartment instead - she can always shop for party food on Monday. So she stays in and cleans up, takes a brief trip to the recycling bins, doesn't get round to making mince pies. She doesn't always have her phone switched on. Murder takes place Saturday night. Just an example of an alternative scenario. We do not all live electronically - sometimes people just enjoy a bit of slobbing out (having a pyjama day) or get on with stuff that does not involve 'communication'.

Or maybe she went down with flu and went to bed until Sunday night...would a virus survive those sub zero temperatures and show up during autopsy?

just some random alternative thoughts.

There's one thing young people like is their phones Jigzy, they spend hours looking at them, or they are stuck to their heads lol, I'm sure if Jo was alive after fri 17th, she would be busy with her fingers, she made one call to her friend, and sent a text to another in just half an hour walking on the road, she either had company all the time, or she had gone on her last journey.

 

[Patticake]

Not sure if the police must have proof that he was still in Bristol at 9pm....more that they may have proof that he wasn't. However, as we don't know what receipts/CCTV cameras they have him on during his journey north...maybe, as earlier posted by someone, he DID double back? I know how daft the 'body in the bath' scenario sounds..but there are so many oddities surrounding this case...maybe best to include everything....however unlikely...then discount it when something else appears to make it impossible?

I think of the Laci Peterson case.

She disappeared on Dec. 24th 2002. The police arrested her husband Scott at the end of April 2003.

I think the police wait until they are well along on a case since the defendant has a right to a speedy trial [and other things]. IMO, the trend is to wait until the evidence is incontrovertible.

.

 

[whitedove]

Well I've always wondered how easy it has been for the police to track Greg's journey to Sheffield via CCTV (given the weather conditions)

Using this as an example, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Yes, that's not a very clear picture Luna, but they may have a cam that just picks up car regs, they have got cams that take your number if your speeding, and your not even stopped, you just get a fine through the post, so some cams must have clear pics.

 

[wfgodot]

I am lighting a candle in memory of Jo, and I hope she sends a signal somehow (DNA or anything else) so the perp is caught.

Excellent job with everything in your post, Firefly75. And especially with this I quote above. Having lived in San Antonio, Texas, for years - a very Catholic town - I've an abundance of prayer candles (always for sale at the botanicas there) of various saints, and will be choosing the one in memory of Joanna tonight, and thanks for the idea. And the notion of Jo sending a signal somehow - well-said and perfect.

 

[jigzy]

Well I've always wondered how easy it has been for the police to track Greg's journey to Sheffield via CCTV (given the weather conditions)

Using this as an example, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

IMO, I'm amazed that GR actually arrived in Sheffield if that's absolutely true. Here in the Cambrian Mountains we had 12" of snow that night alone (I have reason to remember the exact conditions that night) not to mention a load more around the 20th. I recall watching the national News where traffic was advised to stay off the roads unless absolutely necessary. I know that the conditions elsewhere may not have been as severe as in my locality, but......Was GR's journey really necessary? Really worth risking the car for? His parents backed down from travelling didn't they...Did GR really get there, stay there and return Sunday evening or did he turn around and return to Bristol?

jmo.

 

[MrZhivago]

Good pic of lorps house.....notice the wheelie bins?????? mmmm.

Traffic cop probably there because both ends of street were closed off?

I would definitely be thinking in terms of this as "PS's house" rather than "Lorp's" [yes, I know the two terms describe the same thing].

 

[MrZhivago]

I think the whole thing is completely above board. The "asleep" claim was the press's version of what they had got from a friend of MW and no doubt a confusion. On the other two, I think that when Joanna made the call, MW was at his office and his phone on charge. Then he took the phone off charge and went to the office party where he checked his messages and saw the one from Joanna and replied to it. No mystery.

I don't think that MW is directly involved. But, for the record, find me anybody who works for a charity and is still at the office anytime after 7pm!

 

[Luna15]

Yes, that's not a very clear picture Luna, but they may have a cam that just picks up car regs, they have got cams that take your number if your speeding, and your not even stopped, you just get a fine through the post, so some cams must have clear pics.

I wonder how well they could have picked up a car reg in those weather conditions tho? especially if the snow was partly covering the reg, this pic may be a better example. ETA actually this would be a lot lighter than a dark winters night.

I actually think the police really have got their work cut out, ensuring that they have irrefutable evidence in court.

 

[jigzy]

There's one thing young people like is their phones Jigzy, they spend hours looking at them, or they are stuck to their heads lol, I'm sure if Jo was alive after fri 17th, she would be busy with her fingers, she made one call to her friend, and sent a text to another in just half an hour walking on the road, she either had company all the time, or she had gone on her last journey.

Indeed I am well aware of the habits of young folk and mobile phones, but consider this: how often would a person use their mobile phone to call mum & dad, friends, bf if they were in the arms of another?

Not saying this was the case, and I'm not closed to the idea that the time of death could be any time that weekend, but there are certainly times when being available to everyone can be an unwanted distraction.

jmo

 

[wfgodot]

If this from Daily Mail has already been posted, sorry - have been on futon all day battling flu-like symptoms, plus outside it's -7° F, "feels like" windchill-wise, and my heating is old & creaky. Brrrr.

Joanna's killer could have avoided every CCTV camera on journey from flat to where her body was found

first few paragraphs, rest of the article at link above:

Joanna Yeates’s killer could have driven from her flat to the roadside where her body was found without being recorded on a single CCTV camera, it emerged yesterday.

Police are understood to have concentrated on more than 100 hours of footage taken from the most direct route between the landscape architect’s home and the lane where she was dumped, which is over the Clifton Suspension Bridge.

But a second route between the two locations, which adds only a few minutes to the journey time, is almost free of cameras.

The alternative course, through Clifton Village, Clifton Wood and Hotwells and over the Avon Bridge towards the outskirts of Bristol, is used by residents familiar with the winding streets of this affluent part of the city.

It has the added bonus of avoiding the 50p toll on the suspension bridge, which is paid by motorists travelling in both directions.

Surprisingly, any motorist or pedestrian making the four-mile downhill journey past rows of Georgian townhouses would encounter only a single camera positioned high on a lamp post.

But that does not even record footage and is simply used to monitor traffic flow.

ETA:

And this one, from the Telegraph, hearkens back to the link MrZhivago posted several pages back from the Sun - if you read that one there's little new here, but if someone's just now looking on, it's a good overview:

'Highly significant' clue discovered in Jo Yeates inquiry

Police are conducting forensic tests on a "highly significant" clue that has been handed to officers investigating the murder of Joanna Yeates.

Police have refused to give any further information on the item, but sources within the force have insisted it is being taken seriously.

plenty more at link above

 

[Phillb]

IMO, I'm amazed that GR actually arrived in Sheffield if that's absolutely true. Here in the Cambrian Mountains we had 12" of snow that night alone (I have reason to remember the exact conditions that night) not to mention a load more around the 20th. I recall watching the national News where traffic was advised to stay off the roads unless absolutely necessary. I know that the conditions elsewhere may not have been as severe as in my locality, but......Was GR's journey really necessary? Really worth risking the car for? His parents backed down from travelling didn't they...Did GR really get there, stay there and return Sunday evening or did he turn around and return to Bristol?

jmo.

It was very light snow in Yorkshire on the 17th. It started at midnight, and we had a dusting in Leeds by morning. Sheffield is only 39 miles away. We never got a significant amount all week. There doesn't look any snow on the C.C.T.V images of Jo in Bristol after Greg supposedly had set off either. What time did it start snowing in Bristol on Friday night?

 

[MrZhivago]

I'm not certain about anything....except it's January!....this is all so confusing.

You say that it's January, and I can see the sense behind that. But has anybody considered the idea that perhaps it's early February? We had a fair bit of snow a few weeks ago, and I remember that a couple of years ago, a few weeks after we had a relatively heavy snow, it was definitely February then.
So I'm not sure. And, although A&S Police dated their most recent press release early January, I don't think they have much of a clue about anything. So I'm keeping an open mind on this.
But yes, either January or February.







.... unless it's December.

 

[Luna15]

IMO, I'm amazed that GR actually arrived in Sheffield if that's absolutely true. Here in the Cambrian Mountains we had 12" of snow that night alone (I have reason to remember the exact conditions that night) not to mention a load more around the 20th. I recall watching the national News where traffic was advised to stay off the roads unless absolutely necessary. I know that the conditions elsewhere may not have been as severe as in my locality, but......Was GR's journey really necessary? Really worth risking the car for? His parents backed down from travelling didn't they...Did GR really get there, stay there and return Sunday evening or did he turn around and return to Bristol?

jmo.

I'm convinced that he set out, but turned back when realising just how bad driving conditions were, once the altercation happened, he had to go then as he needed an alibi.

I don't think that MW is directly involved. But, for the record, find me anybody who works for a charity and is still at the office anytime after 7pm!

not sure what exactly he does for this charity, but some of these charities work quite late into the evening doing telesales..... I know I've had them call!!

 

[jigzy]

You say that it's January, and I can see the sense behind that. But has anybody considered the idea that perhaps it's early February? We had a fair bit of snow a few weeks ago, and I remember that a couple of years ago, a few weeks after we had a relatively heavy snow, it was definitely February then.
So I'm not sure. And, although A&S Police dated their most recent press release early January, I don't think they have much of a clue about anything. So I'm keeping an open mind on this.
But yes, either January or February.







.... unless it's December.

I think where the LE are concerned it's April 1st - a freakin joke. Has it taken this long for the LE to figure out that only a complete numpty would have driven the body over that toll bridge. Grrrr

jmo