UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[Chambo1994]

Whilst I don’t think she committed suicide personally, there may be others considering this still. @Newthoughts quite rightly says she had been discharged from CAMHS, however there is testimony suggesting she was still struggling.

her mother stated at the trial that the last time she had self harmed was eight months prior to her death (so whilst at uni) and that she would regularly drink to the point of being sick.

Her boyfriend, Connor, said:

I do not think she was suicidal. She didn’t want to die. She made attempts but would immediately alert someone. I did try to talk to her but it was very difficult for her. As far as I know she has not harmed herself for the last seven months. We made an agreement I would stop smoking and she would stop hurting herself and as far as I know she kept to her side of the agreement.”

Also worth noting our Mental Health services in the UK aren’t the best. Under funded and under utilised.

One of the points made on the post was that she seemed happy and was having fun, but with depression that means nothing unfortunately. There are plenty of people who seem perfectly fine who commit suicide, sadly depression is a silent killer.

 

[Sooty]

Also a thought about why she would enter the park if she was left outside the park by PR as he said. The ‘hide and die’ response in hypothermic people is well documented. I know her pathology report would not attribute a cause of death, but they do acknowledge she was undoubtedly hypothermic. Seeking a place to hide may have led her towards the river, despite it meaning she headed away from safety.

unfortunately in this particular set of tragic circumstances there are sometimes no rational explanations. IMO.

 

[bos]

Can anyone remind me why the top of the park/boathouse area is deemed the most likely location for Libby to have entered the river (on Websleuths)?

I know Sam Alford said the screaming seemed to come from the top of the pond but he also said he’d looked across the skate park, saw nothing at first, then saw a man crossing the park.

Could she have entered the river nearer the stretch where the wind turbine is? I don’t doubt Sam Alford thought the screams came from the pond direction, but perception of sound may not necessarily be accurate.

If it’s possible she could have gone into the river at the right hand side of the park rather than the top (3 O’clock rather than 12 o’clock position), does this affect time taken to reach river?

 

[bos]

Duplicate post DBM

 

[Ruthbullock]

She ended up in there somehow though - what other alternatives are there I wonder?

There is stumbling away and unknowingly no longer being pursued (so it doesn’t matter that it’s not fast) and falling accidentally into the river. It is possible without anything to show that he was in the park, that he is telling the truth on that point and LS ran off in that direction to stop him following her in the car. Her belief is that he may start pursuing her on foot, but reality was he didn’t, or he did but only a short distance before giving up and leaving the park. That is my third option for what may have happened.

 

[aworldofmadness]

Hey there, just chipping in after following this case right from the beginning.
Couple of things I'm querying - does anyone know if the times on the CCTV are actually correct/accurate? I wonder if there are discrepancies then this could account for the tight timescales and it could also account for the 2 witnesses hearing scream after PR is supposed to have left the park.

I did also wonder if the screams heard by Mr Alford sounded like they were moving because this was Libby screaming whilst being carried by PR.

If scream tests were carried out to determine where screams were coming from, would this normally be done by prosecution or defence? Or the responsibility of LE in the investigation phase.

 

[havntgotaclue]

Oh dear, I see where your money is, and maybe the jury will see the same. Though we do have to remember we haven't heard all of the evidence yet. But from your post I get that you're getting at;

1. She had the immediate opportunity to go home, was dropped off right outside her door, but chose not to go in, instead obviously had another agenda in mind

2. Her demeanor had been evidenced to change throughout the night. The 2 older men who were returning from darts said that she firstly asked one of them to lie down with her, and then minutes later she became aggressive. She was about to get into their car, but then in an instant became verbally abusive and walked away and sat on the wall.

I can't even bear to pick through the rest. Bless her. But I know what you're getting at.

And welcome

Have i missed something here? ..she asked one of the men returning from darts to lay down with her..i dont recall this?

 

[I wonder]

Have i missed something here? ..she asked one of the men returning from darts to lay down with her..i dont recall this?

Libby Squire - the tragic evidence of those who tried to help her

 

[havntgotaclue]

Libby Squire - the tragic evidence of those who tried to help her

My mistake..i need sleep

 

[JosieJo]

back to...timescales, tried my hardest to make them work, i dont like stating that i would like them to work, but they dont. If they are to work, pawel has to put libby in the water using the steeper route to the river, and this may include completing the disposal on the third visit. I have recalculated the run from the nearest access to the river (steeper slope up to the bank) back to the layby where pawel would of HAD to have been parked. I now conclude for an average man his age that it would be more like a minute plus 10,20,30 secs to exit the park from the river bank. it is fairly easy to read from google earth. He would of needed more time maybe. thats it by im gone best wishes.

I agree using maps and a above average running speed its "almost" impossible..especially with ice and slopes and a body or struggling person
The timings are very accurate as they are based on cctv and his car coming and going ..he actually arrived home 11 mins after his car arrived as I recall

 

[Newthoughts]

Also a thought about why she would enter the park if she was left outside the park by PR as he said. The ‘hide and die’ response in hypothermic people is well documented. I know her pathology report would not attribute a cause of death, but they do acknowledge she was undoubtedly hypothermic. Seeking a place to hide may have led her towards the river, despite it meaning she headed away from safety.

unfortunately in this particular set of tragic circumstances there are sometimes no rational explanations. IMO.

I think the expert estimated her body temperature had dropped to 35. Based on the ambient temperature that night, her clothing, alcohol level and the behaviour witnessed. He also said he would expect her to remain like that for a while.

So I would guess the fact she was young and healthy would mean that, even with alcohol, her body would still be functioning to try and prevent a further drop. Otherwise every Saturday night there would be lots of deaths.

The paradoxical undressing does seem to occur as temperatures drop from that. By that time she probably couldn't walk anywhere. The burrowing and hibernation seems to appear at even lower along with seriously reduced ability to move.

So I'm guessing, but I really don't know, that the PM would show things like depleted glycogen stores. Which can't have been there or they'd have been mentioned as cause of death. But I'm not an expert so it's only an opinion.

So we can only take what the expert says and that is a body temp of 35 degrees, only the symptoms he's listed and that she would remain like that for a while.

IMOO

 

[Lucy6226]

Although I believe he put her in the river, I've thought of the possibility of her accidentally slipping into the river after the rape - if she went to clean herself in the water. Or being so distraught she did decide to end her life. Neither of these explain why he went back for the 3rd visit which is why I believe him responsible

 

[Ruthbullock]

DBM

 

[JosieJo]

Hey there, just chipping in after following this case right from the beginning.
Couple of things I'm querying - does anyone know if the times on the CCTV are actually correct/accurate? I wonder if there are discrepancies then this could account for the tight timescales and it could also account for the 2 witnesses hearing scream after PR is supposed to have left the park.

I did also wonder if the screams heard by Mr Alford sounded like they were moving because this was Libby screaming whilst being carried by PR.

If scream tests were carried out to determine where screams were coming from, would this normally be done by prosecution or defence? Or the responsibility of LE in the investigation phase.

Regarding cctv ...I think ? No matter if the cctv time was out the same cctv caught him arriving and leaving southern time in the middle would still be 7.5 min

 

[Newthoughts]

Also worth noting our Mental Health services in the UK aren’t the best. Under funded and under utilised.

One of the points made on the post was that she seemed happy and was having fun, but with depression that means nothing unfortunately. There are plenty of people who seem perfectly fine who commit suicide, sadly depression is a silent killer.

So you think that following a rape - when a natural response is shock - she waded into the river to commit suicide when she could have jumped into the pond where it would have been far easier?

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

The third visit. He'd left Libby alive according to him. Yet he wasn't worried she'd go for help, get police involved, that a description of him and his car would be going around, that police might be searching for him that very minute. He was out and about, back to the scene of the crime and with not a care in the world. He knew she was dead IMO.
JMO

 

[Newthoughts]

The third visit. He'd left Libby alive according to him. Yet he wasn't worried she'd go for help, get police involved, that a description of him and his car would be going around, that police might be searching for him that very minute. He was out and about, back to the scene of the crime and with not a care in the world. He knew she was dead IMO.
JMO

I agree. It's his behaviour later on. After committing a rape he feels confident enough to fill a condom - which on past behaviour I suspect was to leave somewhere if he hadn't lost it - secure in the knowledge the DNA inside it would not match that taken from the raped girl?

 

[LucyRocket]

They have been put there to prevent people pulling up in the cars and drug dealing and dogging on the park which i have seen both of many times

 

[tigerowl]

A lot has been said that he wouldn't have returned the third time if he thought there was a risk of Libby being there - therefore, he must have killed her because he felt safe.

I'm no psychologist, but I disagree with this. His previous form shows him often returning to the same houses, same streets and same people. I think he was so excited by what he had done and so sexually charged he went back to that area to re-live his excitement. Remind himself of what he had done. He is still very sexually charged at this point as it is not long after that we see him masturbating on Newland.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

I agree. It's his behaviour later on. After committing a rape he feels confident enough to fill a condom - which on past behaviour I suspect was to leave somewhere if he hadn't lost it - secure in the knowledge the DNA inside it would not match that taken from the raped girl?

I agree. I believe he thought he had nothing to worry about, he had killed her and disposed of her, she might never be found, he probably thought no one would even know she was missing for a day or two. In his mind he was free to leave his DNA anywhere he wanted, sheer arrogance. JMO