UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #19

[Marg from Oz]

DBm

 

[Marg from Oz]

Yeah you pretty close ;-)

Yes. There are two L's in the polish language. One that is the same as English L l
This is pronounced as the English L. But then there is the one with a cross through it that is pronounced as a W. And then you have W which is pronounced V.

I have known a few Pavels in my time. One was a Slovak.

 

[Marulinka]

Brilliant!

 

[mrazda71]

It’s so complicated and I’m
No good at explaining- but what concerns me is, Libby potentially would have passed away that night even if she had not met PR. So to some degree they have to prove he wasn’t helping her, there was a more devious purpose.

Yes you're absolutely right, Libby potentially could've passed out unconscious, out of sight and died of Hypothermia that night and that would've been a truly tragic accidental death.

BUT, respectfully, she didn't did she ...

Libby died after being raped by a dangerous, predatory, convicted sex offender - we know this because he lied about anything sexual happening with her until faced with forensic evidence of his sperm in her vagina and she was not in any capacity to consent to sex. We know for a fact that he drove her to a secluded area he had already that night scoped out thanks to cctv.

The only helpful thing he's done? leave a trail of evidence behind him, lies, forensics, cctv and witnesses.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Yes you're absolutely right, Libby potentially could've passed out unconscious, out of sight and died of Hypothermia that night and that would've been a truly tragic accidental death.

BUT, respectfully, she didn't did she ...

Libby died after being raped by a dangerous, predatory, convicted sex offender - we know this because he lied about anything sexual happening with her until faced with forensic evidence of his sperm in her vagina and she was not in any capacity to consent to sex. We know for a fact that he drove her to a secluded area he had already that night scoped out thanks to cctv.

The only helpful thing he's done leave a trail of evidence behind him, lies, forensics, cctv and witnesses.

And dont forget the drone footage, which was the day before!

 

[Marulinka]

When PR encountered Libby at the Endsleigh entrance, she was not far from home and heading in the right direction for her road. He was very local and very familiar with the local area, but he does not mention asking her where she lives until after she is in his car (doors locked?) yet he does suggest that he give her a lift home. In the car, he says that he asks if she knows where she lives and she says she will show him.
My point is, that if she could show him at all, it was so close that it might have been possible to begin with, if they had walked there, and he could have supported her to get there - but he neither asked her where she lived nor suggest that, because he wasn't going there anyway, he took her to his car instead.
But she was not in a state to show anyone how to get her home once in a car which then drove in almost a circle and did a few turns here and there before stopping at oak road, a much greater distance from her home.
PR, whose first language is not English and who has needed a translator throughout his dealings with the (sober) police, has been able to report every word she said to him, clearly and with confidence, yet other people who have not needed translators have reported that they could not understand much of what she was saying because her speech was so slurred and indistinct, and it even seems that Libby became frustrated with them for this reason. PR did not need to know what she was saying.
Also: from his own various reports of what happened in a very short journey in his car (5mins?) PR has reported that she tried to undo his trousers, scratched his face and took of her own knickers all whilst directing him to her home, he did not stop the car until he arrived at a very secluded and lonely place which he also knew very well.
That's why I don't think he was trying to help her.

Apologies my earlier post was a reply to this above post by @porkypies

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Yes you're absolutely right, Libby potentially could've passed out unconscious, out of sight and died of Hypothermia that night and that would've been a truly tragic accidental death.

BUT, respectfully, she didn't did she ...

Libby died after being raped by a dangerous, predatory, convicted sex offender - we know this because he lied about anything sexual happening with her until faced with forensic evidence of his sperm in her vagina and she was not in any capacity to consent to sex. We know for a fact that he drove her to a secluded area he had already that night scoped out thanks to cctv.

The only helpful thing he's done? leave a trail of evidence behind him, lies, forensics, cctv and witnesses.

Also to add, you do not get away with murder because the victim MAY have died anyway.

 

[mrazda71]

We ... I mean, the jury ... don't have to imagine ANY scenario that might render him innocent of murder - we/they just have to decide what is believable.

Is it believable that Libby was raped and murdered? (I'd say yes).

Is it believable that Libby ended up dead, in the water under her own steam after being raped by a predatory sex offender but, didn't drown? (I would without hesitation say No)

IF her dead body was found in the park the next day I could maybe believe it was manslaughter not murder - if he'd raped her and left and she had died of Hypothermia there - he'd still be responsible for her death but maybe not 'murder'

 

[JosieJo]

Also, we should remember that the jurors are seeing EVERYTHING and they're not obsessed with murders like 'we' are, they won't be over analysing every little thing that's said by every witness - I think some if not most will already have got the measure of PR and already know which way they're leaning.

I could go back to every case and find posts from some of you saying 'not sure it's enough' and yet the jury always does think it's enough ... have faith 'fam', have faith.

I agree .. I think "we" can be far more obsessed with the actual "evidence" than seeing a vile sexual predator that "must" have done it ... I do wonder,if the jury did not know his seedy past .. would they be feeling the same

 

[Miss_French]

Is it believable that Libby was raped and murdered? (I'd say yes).

Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.

 

[catgreen]

Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.

Surely the motive was silencing after a sex attack and pre-planning proved by taking drone footage of the site in advance?

 

[Newthoughts]

Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.

I think it should have been murder - but they didn't actually set out to harm someone. They set out to steal a quad bike. That was the focus and motive of their crime. Their claim was also that they didn't know they were towing him which is hard to believe.

In this case however, deliberate harm to someone vulnerable was the focus and motive of the crime. And a deliberate act of violence that he knowingly committed. With a sufficient degree of brutality. And the location by a river (she was in his car - he could have raped her anywhere) and the checking it out are also relevant.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.

I think on the positive side for murder we have the drone and the visit to the site earlier. The rape has to be guilty IMO whichever way you look at it so there's motive. I do believe on balance Libby was asphyxiated as opposed to drowned too. I hope we get final clarity about the bruising around her mouth. The damage to her upper lip I think was maybe pressure applied by hand.

Hoping there's more to come.

 

[Ruthbullock]

When PR encountered Libby at the Endsleigh entrance, she was not far from home and heading in the right direction for her road. He was very local and very familiar with the local area, but he does not mention asking her where she lives until after she is in his car (doors locked?) yet he does suggest that he give her a lift home. In the car, he says that he asks if she knows where she lives and she says she will show him.
My point is, that if she could show him at all, it was so close that it might have been possible to begin with, if they had walked there, and he could have supported her to get there - but he neither asked her where she lived nor suggest that, because he wasn't going there anyway, he took her to his car instead.
But she was not in a state to show anyone how to get her home once in a car which then drove in almost a circle and did a few turns here and there before stopping at oak road, a much greater distance from her home.
PR, whose first language is not English and who has needed a translator throughout his dealings with the (sober) police, has been able to report every word she said to him, clearly and with confidence, yet other people who have not needed translators have reported that they could not understand much of what she was saying because her speech was so slurred and indistinct, and it even seems that Libby became frustrated with them for this reason. PR did not need to know what she was saying.
Also: from his own various reports of what happened in a very short journey in his car (5mins?) PR has reported that she tried to undo his trousers, scratched his face and took of her own knickers all whilst directing him to her home, he did not stop the car until he arrived at a very secluded and lonely place which he also knew very well.
That's why I don't think he was trying to help her.

I don’t think he was trying to help her either, sadly I think if you removed him from the situation, it still wouldn’t have been a good result that night- I had a friend who walked from her home and kids and sat by a tree in the UK who passed away from hypothermia(she was found the following day by SAR).

 

[porkypies]

I don’t think he was trying to help her either, sadly I think if you removed him from the situation, it still wouldn’t have been a good result that night- I had a friend who walked from her home and kids and sat by a tree in the UK who passed away from hypothermia(she was found the following day by SAR).

I think that if every young person who became drunk and hypothermic on a cold night, had the bad result predicted, without interference by any abductor, there would be hundreds of outdoor young deaths every Friday and Saturday night in UK towns and cities.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think that if every young person who became drunk and hypothermic on a cold night, had the bad result predicted, without interference by any abductor, there would be hundreds of outdoor young deaths every Friday and Saturday night in UK towns and cities.

There obviously isn’t- but sarcasm
To the few who die isn’t appreciated especially when it is close (and they weren’t even students, just depressed and it was cold) generalisations are not what this site is about

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I am hopeful there were still enough folks out and about that night that would have helped Libby home. Or maybe called LE to get her help. Eventually maybe she would have not been as agitated.

 

[porkypies]

I am hopeful there were still enough folks out and about that night that would have helped Libby home. Or maybe called LE to get her help. Eventually maybe she would have not been as agitated.

I agree, she was stumbling and circling near to home, in a lit place in full view, with plenty of people and vehicles happening by and stopping to check her out, her friends were out looking for her in that very area as soon as they realised she was not home, they also said that they expected to find her somewhere on the streets nearby. Her greatest danger was not alcohol or cold.

 

[Loobyloo]

Richard Wright QC, prosecuting, asked what the screams conveyed to him.

Mr Alford replied: “Like, desperation.”

He said the screaming went on for an estimated four to seven minutes.

After going to the toilet briefly, he looked out of his window, on to a skate park, but could not see anything initially.

Mr Alford said there was a full moon and snow, so the visibility was good, and after a few minutes he saw a man crossing the park.

He told the jury: “There was an urgency about the way he was moving.

“He was moving with a purpose, he didn’t look back once.”

So the sequence of events here is:
1 screaming stops
2 Mr A goes to toilet
3 Mr A returns & looks out for a few minutes
4 fast walking man appears

It seems to me that 2 & 3 provide the time window for PR to drag his silenced victim into the water.
ETA: I'm also struck by Mr A's remarks that there was a full moon & good visibility. This makes it even less likely that Libby would have accidentally stumbled into the water - if she'd been able to run, she wouldn't have been running blindly into darkness.

 

[Loobyloo]

If the yeast factory CCTV was relevant, would it not have been shown/discussed already in the CCTV presentation by the police officer a couple of days ago? Not sure how much new evidence/witnesses are left. I imagine we will hear from the NHS doctor regarding the hypothermia, is there anyone else that could be called? I wonder if they ever managed to track the 4 people seen on the Croda cam.

Yes, I'm puzzled by the way the yeast factory CCTV was mentioned in the opening remarks, but not in the fuller presentation of CCTV material, unless this was simply a detail omitted from the HDM summaries.