Marg from Oz
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DBm
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Yeah you pretty close ;-)
It’s so complicated and I’m
No good at explaining- but what concerns me is, Libby potentially would have passed away that night even if she had not met PR. So to some degree they have to prove he wasn’t helping her, there was a more devious purpose.
And dont forget the drone footage, which was the day before!Yes you're absolutely right, Libby potentially could've passed out unconscious, out of sight and died of Hypothermia that night and that would've been a truly tragic accidental death.
BUT, respectfully, she didn't did she ...
Libby died after being raped by a dangerous, predatory, convicted sex offender - we know this because he lied about anything sexual happening with her until faced with forensic evidence of his sperm in her vagina and she was not in any capacity to consent to sex. We know for a fact that he drove her to a secluded area he had already that night scoped out thanks to cctv.
The only helpful thing he's done leave a trail of evidence behind him, lies, forensics, cctv and witnesses.
Apologies my earlier post was a reply to this above post by @porkypiesWhen PR encountered Libby at the Endsleigh entrance, she was not far from home and heading in the right direction for her road. He was very local and very familiar with the local area, but he does not mention asking her where she lives until after she is in his car (doors locked?) yet he does suggest that he give her a lift home. In the car, he says that he asks if she knows where she lives and she says she will show him.
My point is, that if she could show him at all, it was so close that it might have been possible to begin with, if they had walked there, and he could have supported her to get there - but he neither asked her where she lived nor suggest that, because he wasn't going there anyway, he took her to his car instead.
But she was not in a state to show anyone how to get her home once in a car which then drove in almost a circle and did a few turns here and there before stopping at oak road, a much greater distance from her home.
PR, whose first language is not English and who has needed a translator throughout his dealings with the (sober) police, has been able to report every word she said to him, clearly and with confidence, yet other people who have not needed translators have reported that they could not understand much of what she was saying because her speech was so slurred and indistinct, and it even seems that Libby became frustrated with them for this reason. PR did not need to know what she was saying.
Also: from his own various reports of what happened in a very short journey in his car (5mins?) PR has reported that she tried to undo his trousers, scratched his face and took of her own knickers all whilst directing him to her home, he did not stop the car until he arrived at a very secluded and lonely place which he also knew very well.
That's why I don't think he was trying to help her.
Also to add, you do not get away with murder because the victim MAY have died anyway.Yes you're absolutely right, Libby potentially could've passed out unconscious, out of sight and died of Hypothermia that night and that would've been a truly tragic accidental death.
BUT, respectfully, she didn't did she ...
Libby died after being raped by a dangerous, predatory, convicted sex offender - we know this because he lied about anything sexual happening with her until faced with forensic evidence of his sperm in her vagina and she was not in any capacity to consent to sex. We know for a fact that he drove her to a secluded area he had already that night scoped out thanks to cctv.
The only helpful thing he's done? leave a trail of evidence behind him, lies, forensics, cctv and witnesses.
Also, we should remember that the jurors are seeing EVERYTHING and they're not obsessed with murders like 'we' are, they won't be over analysing every little thing that's said by every witness - I think some if not most will already have got the measure of PR and already know which way they're leaning.
I could go back to every case and find posts from some of you saying 'not sure it's enough' and yet the jury always does think it's enough ... have faith 'fam', have faith.
Is it believable that Libby was raped and murdered? (I'd say yes).
Surely the motive was silencing after a sex attack and pre-planning proved by taking drone footage of the site in advance?Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.
I think it should have been murder - but they didn't actually set out to harm someone. They set out to steal a quad bike. That was the focus and motive of their crime. Their claim was also that they didn't know they were towing him which is hard to believe.Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.
I think on the positive side for murder we have the drone and the visit to the site earlier. The rape has to be guilty IMO whichever way you look at it so there's motive. I do believe on balance Libby was asphyxiated as opposed to drowned too. I hope we get final clarity about the bruising around her mouth. The damage to her upper lip I think was maybe pressure applied by hand.Can it be proved there was motive and intent to kill, though? In the Andrew Harper case the defendents were charged with murder, but found guilty of manslaughter, and there was a clear cause of death.
I don’t think he was trying to help her either, sadly I think if you removed him from the situation, it still wouldn’t have been a good result that night- I had a friend who walked from her home and kids and sat by a tree in the UK who passed away from hypothermia(she was found the following day by SAR).When PR encountered Libby at the Endsleigh entrance, she was not far from home and heading in the right direction for her road. He was very local and very familiar with the local area, but he does not mention asking her where she lives until after she is in his car (doors locked?) yet he does suggest that he give her a lift home. In the car, he says that he asks if she knows where she lives and she says she will show him.
My point is, that if she could show him at all, it was so close that it might have been possible to begin with, if they had walked there, and he could have supported her to get there - but he neither asked her where she lived nor suggest that, because he wasn't going there anyway, he took her to his car instead.
But she was not in a state to show anyone how to get her home once in a car which then drove in almost a circle and did a few turns here and there before stopping at oak road, a much greater distance from her home.
PR, whose first language is not English and who has needed a translator throughout his dealings with the (sober) police, has been able to report every word she said to him, clearly and with confidence, yet other people who have not needed translators have reported that they could not understand much of what she was saying because her speech was so slurred and indistinct, and it even seems that Libby became frustrated with them for this reason. PR did not need to know what she was saying.
Also: from his own various reports of what happened in a very short journey in his car (5mins?) PR has reported that she tried to undo his trousers, scratched his face and took of her own knickers all whilst directing him to her home, he did not stop the car until he arrived at a very secluded and lonely place which he also knew very well.
That's why I don't think he was trying to help her.
I think that if every young person who became drunk and hypothermic on a cold night, had the bad result predicted, without interference by any abductor, there would be hundreds of outdoor young deaths every Friday and Saturday night in UK towns and cities.I don’t think he was trying to help her either, sadly I think if you removed him from the situation, it still wouldn’t have been a good result that night- I had a friend who walked from her home and kids and sat by a tree in the UK who passed away from hypothermia(she was found the following day by SAR).
There obviously isn’t- but sarcasmI think that if every young person who became drunk and hypothermic on a cold night, had the bad result predicted, without interference by any abductor, there would be hundreds of outdoor young deaths every Friday and Saturday night in UK towns and cities.
I agree, she was stumbling and circling near to home, in a lit place in full view, with plenty of people and vehicles happening by and stopping to check her out, her friends were out looking for her in that very area as soon as they realised she was not home, they also said that they expected to find her somewhere on the streets nearby. Her greatest danger was not alcohol or cold.I am hopeful there were still enough folks out and about that night that would have helped Libby home. Or maybe called LE to get her help. Eventually maybe she would have not been as agitated.
So the sequence of events here is:Richard Wright QC, prosecuting, asked what the screams conveyed to him.
Mr Alford replied: “Like, desperation.”
He said the screaming went on for an estimated four to seven minutes.
After going to the toilet briefly, he looked out of his window, on to a skate park, but could not see anything initially.
Mr Alford said there was a full moon and snow, so the visibility was good, and after a few minutes he saw a man crossing the park.
He told the jury: “There was an urgency about the way he was moving.
“He was moving with a purpose, he didn’t look back once.”
If the yeast factory CCTV was relevant, would it not have been shown/discussed already in the CCTV presentation by the police officer a couple of days ago? Not sure how much new evidence/witnesses are left. I imagine we will hear from the NHS doctor regarding the hypothermia, is there anyone else that could be called? I wonder if they ever managed to track the 4 people seen on the Croda cam.