UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[mrazda71]

I don't know where you live but I live in a city where 14 year olds are pretty much fully grown men and very streetwise. I'm not feeling sympathy / empathy like you are towards the Youth as if he were a say, 10 year old who was led astray. He's a violent near-grown man and he needs to be urgently stopped. The pity party can happen afterwards. It is clear from questioning that it is possible the Youth dealt the fatal blows in Logan's bedroom.

14 year olds are absolutely not 'fully grown men' ... Even if they're 6 foot 2 inches tall and 3 foot across with a beard and a voice like Morgan freeman ... they are still a child!

With a child's brain, that doesn't fully function until their early 20's.

Also, specifically speaking about 'the youth.... nearly a full grown man???

He was THIRTEEN - in his first year of his teens! <modsnip>

 

[neteditor]

Today's testimony by the youth defendant has me believing that he should have been tried as an adult <snip>

This is not an option under the law of England and Wales.

Youth justice in England and Wales - Wikipedia (edited to add link)

 

[nothinonyou]

i think if all found guilty of murder the youth will be named and a lot more will come out about him

 

[Skigh]

I do not think any of them are going to tell the truth. I think they all had over time been abusing Logan and maybe showing off to each other in how verbally or mentally abusive they were. I also think physical abuse was taking place but something or someone caused it to escalate to the extent of causing LM's death.

 

[mrazda71]

Being obsequious is his little party trick. I don't know what this youth looks like obviously but I imagine he's had a childhood of pulling a cute face, speaking in the baby voice that has already been described, batting his eyelids, and charming people with his oh so innocent asides.

You forgot to add in 'getting that cute face beaten violently by his own mother' into that mix.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Today's testimony by the youth defendant has me believing that he should have been tried as an adult (even though he'll be subject to youth sentencing upon conviction). I think the defendant knows the difference between right and wrong, and he has zero remorse for the harm and suffering Logan endured. I have little faith that protecting the youth at this time (i.e., allowing him freedom) will prevent him from re-offending today, tomorrow, or in the future.

The case reminds me very much of a 2018 murder in Colorado where a 12 yr old shot and killed his dad's girlfriend, helped his dad burn the victim and her car in an attempt to destroy the evidence, before fleeing to a neighboring state. After the father failed to shoot the victim, the child took the gun and murdered the victim where his father was quoted as saying that his 12 yr old son "earned his man card" that day. I see similarities with this father/son relationship as with JC and the youth. (This father denied his son was involved in the murder but the evidence proved otherwise). In this case, the victim, a mother of four, loved her youth killer and worried about him.

By recognizing the youth here as an adult offender, the 12 yr old was remanded to youth detention (no bail) where he was in confinement for 2.6 years awaiting trial. Upon conviction, he was sentenced to 5 years confinement in Dept of Youth Corrections to age 21 (state law requires youth offenders released at age 21). The youthful offender’s sentence includes a parole period as well that was described as one that will offer therapy to the young teen.

The youth's father was previously sentenced to 42 years in prison for second-degree murder in the case. As part of the plea agreement, the father pleaded guilty to the murder charge

Gage Gleason sentenced to 5 years in CDOYC, parole until 21 years of age in murder of Amy Garcia – The World Journal

https://www.koaa.com/news/covering-...-years-for-muder-of-walsenburg-single-mother/

GUILTY - CO - Amy Garcia, 41, shot & burned by man and 12 y.o. son, Huerfano Co, Dec 2018 *Arrests*

I feel like that too based on the callous answers he's given. Thank goodness the courts will get to know a whole lot more than we do.

Something that stands out here is that altho JC seems to be a violent, controlling, angry person, he hasn't actually been offending for considerable time - if he had, he'd have been put straight back in prison from the off. He did manage to get in this relationship and conduct it for the last few years and have a baby and pretend to be a decent bloke for a long time.

That can only mean that JC somewhat had a hook on his temper and personal conduct. He may have done recovery work. He may have 'cleaned up his ways'. Such things might account for why he gained care-taking guardianship of the Youth.

Whereas we know from various sources the youth was acting menacing and terrorising children and animals in the recent past. Putting him with JC who decided to use faux-military style violent punishment techniques combined with martial arts was obviously a terrible mistake. Did JC bring even more of the worst out of the Youth and escalate the Youth's violence ? Did they bring out the worst in each other ? I imagine they'd make a terrifying twosome to encounter. Or, was the Youth so volatile and unpredictable and violent that it brought out the absolute worst in JC, made him feel like he was losing control so he escalated his violent dominance ? A lot to consider.

 

[tedtink]

Based on today's statement, I reiterate that I believe the youth was in awe of JC.
JC had said previously that he had {etd} 'raised' him since he was a baby I believe he meant the youth, so imo there has been a relationship between the two, during the youths formative years and beyond.
I think the two have a very close and trusting bond, albeit unhealthy, JC recreating himself in the youth.
I think when they entered AW's and LM's life the dynamics in the family took a turn for the worst, a toxic brew of insecurities, transference, projection, histrionics and vying for attention.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if JC and the youth acted as partners to antagonise both AW (in the beginning) and LM - AW quickly becoming an ally of 'the other side' leaving LM as the scapegoat, he was the outsider, the vulnerable one, the weaker one, in their view, so bore the brunt.

The 'booger' incident is interesting and I wonder if it was 'planted' as an excuse to persecute LM or if other forms of manipulation, (Covid etc) were used as an excuse to 'punish' him.

If AW's statement is true about JC punching LM and the youth 'sweeping' him and checking his stomach and celebrating the damage, then that is sadistic behavior from them both imo, which the youth also displayed by torturing the dog.

Although I would never excuse the Mother for assaulting the youth, I can only imagine the dynamics may have been very similar.

MOO


Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[neteditor]

Based on today's statement, I reiterate that I believe the youth was in awe of JC.
JC had said previously that he had known him since he was a baby I believe he means the youth, so imo there has been a relationship between the two, during the youths formative years and beyond.
I think the two have a very close and trusting bond, albeit unhealthy, JC recreating himself in the youth.
I think when they entered AW's and LM's life the dynamics in the family took a turn for the worst, a toxic brew of insecurities, transference, projection, histrionics and vying for attention.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if JC and the youth acted as partners to antagonise both AW (in the beginning) and LM - AW quickly becoming an ally of 'the other side' leaving LM as the scapegoat, he was the outsider, the vulnerable one, the weaker one, in their view, so bore the brunt.

The 'booger' incident is interesting and I wonder if it was 'planted' as an excuse to persecute LM or if other forms of manipulation, (Covid etc) were used as an excuse to 'punish' him.

If AW's statement is true about JC punching LM and the youth 'sweeping' him and checking his stomach and celebrating the damage, then that is sadistic behavior from them both imo, which the youth also displayed by torturing the dog.

MOO

I thought it was LM that JC said he'd known since he was a baby. Did I pick that up wrong?

 

[Seattle1]

This is not an option under the law of England and Wales.

Youth justice in England and Wales - Wikipedia (edited to add link)

Thanks @neteditor for the link. I'm familiar that children aged between 10 and 17 in UK/Wales are capable of committing offences and it is not possible for a child to avoid liability by showing that they do not know the difference between right and wrong.

I should have said that my desire for the youth to be recognized as an adult was to provide that he be remanded in secure accommodation (detention in custody). MOO

 

[Jay_Tec]

What do you consider 'something' acceptable enough to be beaten by your own mother ... bearing in mind that this whole thread is hwere condemning a mother for allegedly beating her child ?

It's interesting to consider isn't it? For me, as non violent person, I don't think any violence is OK in any situations. However, sometimes people explain openly why they did things. And when people offer up their explanations, everything seems a whole lot more human and understandable. There's thousands of reasons why a mother could 'snap' and go crazy and beat her own son - some less rational and less comprehensible than others. <modsnip>

Edited to add: Also to point out, this thread is about a little 5 year old who was murdered in extreme violence and tipped in a river. Not to condemn a mother for beating her child, that hasn't been a feature.

 

[Skigh]

I thought it was LM that JC said he'd known since he was a baby. Did I pick that up wrong?

I think you have that wrong. after leaving LM's father AW was married to someone else before she met JC.

I am not sure how old the youth was when his mother met JC

 

[Jay_Tec]

I thought it was LM that JC said he'd known since he was a baby. Did I pick that up wrong?

We don't know who he meant. It was an overheard conversation reported - that JC was saying 'what should I do, I have raised him since a baby?'. My interpretation was he meant the Youth. Other people thought he meant Logan.

 

[Skigh]

We don't know who he meant. It was an overheard conversation reported - that JC was saying 'what should I do, I have raised him since a baby?'. My interpretation was he meant the Youth. Other people thought he meant Logan.

That sounds as if JC was stretching the truth to try and give him a reason why he would not have harmed LM.

 

[Jay_Tec]

14 year olds are absolutely not 'fully grown men' ... Even if they're 6 foot 2 inches tall and 3 foot across with a beard and a voice like Morgan freeman ... they are still a child!

With a child's brain, that doesn't fully function until their early 20's.

Also, specifically speaking about 'the youth.... nearly a full grown man???

He was THIRTEEN - in his first year of his teens! How on earth can you say that's 'near grown man'?

Hey we can agree to disagree. But we don't know anything about him so it wouldn't be very accurate one way or another. Size wise or strength or maturity or immaturity, we don't know. I envisage if he's a large built lad he'd be pretty terrifying but meant mostly in comparison to Logan and the baby.

 

[Seattle1]

We don't know who he meant. It was an overheard conversation reported - that JC was saying 'what should I do, I have raised him since a baby?'. My interpretation was he meant the Youth. Other people thought he meant Logan.

I understood JC to be talking about a moral dilemma over a child he's known since he was a baby -- to me, that made it clear this was about the youth, not Logan.

ETA -- from thread #2

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

Prison officer's statement about Cole
The first statement to be read is from Sarah Jones, a prison officer from HMP Cardiff.

At 9.15am on September 1, 2021, Ms Jones was involved in taking John Cole to a hearing from prison when he made a number of comments to her after her colleague had left the room.

She said: “He turned to me and said ‘I don’t know why they think I could have murdered Logan….”

Later that day, Cole made another comment. He said: “The thing is I didn’t kill Logan, I heard (the youth) reciting a rap song saying ‘I like kids, I like kids, I want to punch and kick them’.”

Cole also told Ms Jones: “I’ve got a moral dilemma, do I go down for murder or protect (the youth).”

 

[mrazda71]

Hey we can agree to disagree. But we don't know anything about him so it wouldn't be very accurate one way or another. Size wise or strength or maturity or immaturity, we don't know. I envisage if he's a large built lad he'd be pretty terrifying but meant mostly in comparison to Logan and the baby.

I'm sorry but that still doesn't make a 13 year old 'nearly a full grown man' nor does it change the fact that a young person's brain isn't fully functioning until their early twenties.

That's scientific fact.

 

[Dotta]

I understood JC to be talking about a moral dilemma over a child he's known since he was a baby -- to me, that made it clear this was about the youth, not Logan.

Sorry, but "moral" and JC do not go hand in hand.
I just couldn't help myself to write this.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Based on today's statement, I reiterate that I believe the youth was in awe of JC.
JC had said previously that he had {etd} 'raised' him since he was a baby I believe he meant the youth, so imo there has been a relationship between the two, during the youths formative years and beyond.
I think the two have a very close and trusting bond, albeit unhealthy, JC recreating himself in the youth.
I think when they entered AW's and LM's life the dynamics in the family took a turn for the worst, a toxic brew of insecurities, transference, projection, histrionics and vying for attention.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if JC and the youth acted as partners to antagonise both AW (in the beginning) and LM - AW quickly becoming an ally of 'the other side' leaving LM as the scapegoat, he was the outsider, the vulnerable one, the weaker one, in their view, so bore the brunt.

The 'booger' incident is interesting and I wonder if it was 'planted' as an excuse to persecute LM or if other forms of manipulation, (Covid etc) were used as an excuse to 'punish' him.

If AW's statement is true about JC punching LM and the youth 'sweeping' him and checking his stomach and celebrating the damage, then that is sadistic behavior from them both imo, which the youth also displayed by torturing the dog.

Although I would never excuse the Mother for assaulting the youth, I can only imagine the dynamics may have been very similar.

MOO


Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

I agree with all you have said here, based on statements and evidence only. It would be typical of a violent abusive man to raise a little protege side kick mini-me.
There have been clear examples of projection of behaviours and motivations onto Logan.

 

[Seattle1]

I'm sorry but that still doesn't make a 13 year old 'nearly a full grown man' nor does it change the fact that a young person's brain isn't fully functioning until their early twenties.

That's scientific fact.

Respectfully, even the laws of England/Wales, and America recognize that there are exceptions where even youth with a brain that isn't fully functioning as that of an early twenties brain can't be exempt from crime and/or punishment just because of their age. For example, Thompson and Venables-- age 10.

Youth justice in England and Wales - Wikipedia

... children aged between 10 and 17 are capable of committing offences and it is not possible for a child to avoid liability by showing that they do not know the difference between right and wrong. ...

In exceptional circumstances, most notably the case of the murder of James Bulger in Liverpool in 1993, children can be tried as an adult in an adult court.

Thompson and Venables [age 10] were considered by the court to be capable of "mischievous discretion", meaning an ability to act with criminal intent as they were mature enough to understand that they were doing something seriously wrong.

 

[mrazda71]

Respectfully, even the laws of England/Wales, and America recognize that there are exceptions where even youth with a brain that isn't fully functioning as that of an early twenties brain can't be exempt from crime and/or punishment just because of their age. For example, Thompson and Venables-- age 10.

Youth justice in England and Wales - Wikipedia

... children aged between 10 and 17 are capable of committing offences and it is not possible for a child to avoid liability by showing that they do not know the difference between right and wrong. ...

In exceptional circumstances, most notably the case of the murder of James Bulger in Liverpool in 1993, children can be tried as an adult in an adult court.

Thompson and Venables [age 10] were considered by the court to be capable of "mischievous discretion", meaning an ability to act with criminal intent as they were mature enough to understand that they were doing something seriously wrong.

As a side note, I believe the judge in the Thompson & Venables later regretted that decision but at the time hoped that it would appease the general population.

It didn't really and in fact, is likely to have made matters worse.