UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[ChloLo]

To suggest that the youth did something to get assaulted so badly he was taken into care is victim blaming. I don’t care what the circumstances there is no reason for a parent to do that. Whatever is said about the youth, he is still a child.

 

[Nemonemonemo]

I have no idea to what extent the boy was involved. Only three people know that. What we do know is that he was definitely involved to some degree, and that professionals working with him have testified to some very troubling history. I think some serious questions need to be asked as to why. There were three children in that house who needed protecting, he was one of them. There are a lot of people saying he's nearly an adult, etc. If my 14 year old is thirty minutes late home from school, I'm panicking. He is a child. I will die on that hill.

I think it shows perfectly that he's a child.

13 ... over the age of criminal responsibility? yes.

'Old enough to know bettet? ... such an odd phrase IMO.

I think some here misinterpret my empathy for this child as sympathy or excusing his part in Logans ill treatment and death.

I don't excuse the child of any responsibility at all but, I certainly hold the 2 adults involved (and any adults who witnessed Logans treatment & deterioration and did nothing) to a much higher level of responsibility.

 

[katydid23]

The Youth has revealed in the early questioning that he knows the difference between honesty and dishonesty and whether someone is perceived as honest or not.

He also pointed the discrepancy in 'postman' not 'policeman'. He has shown capacity for remembering detail (Logan's bedding) and having accurate memory recall.

Therefore he cannot later argue a severe learning disability or mental health problem that prevents him discerning things in general.

I noticed that stuff too. He was pretty quick on the uptake and did not seem 'simple minded' or slow. He seems to be pretty quick witted and able to pivot quickly during questioning. And he has very good recall. So I am not sure he is doing himself any favours.

 

[mrazda71]

I noticed that stuff too. He was pretty quick on the uptake and did not seem 'simple minded' or slow. He seems to be pretty quick witted and able to pivot quickly during questioning. And he has very good recall. So I am not sure he is doing himself any favours.

Having 'a learning disability' here in the UK doesn't define a person as "simple minded or slow" ... one of my daughters has a learning disability - dyslexia - she still has a degree and a masters degree and is working as a young persons mental health therapist.

 

[Nemonemonemo]

Having 'a learning disability' here in the UK doesn't define a person as "simple minded or slow" ... one of my daughters has a learning disability - dyslexia - she still has a degree and a masters degree and is working as a young persons mental health therapist.

Autistic spectrum disorder is also classed as a learning disability, despite many people with the diagnosis having average or greater than average academic performance.

I believe all we've seen regarding this boy's intellectual capacity is that he's 'academically poor.' If he's had a history of trauma and significant disruptions to his home life, maybe he just can't be arsed. That being said, I was more interested in reading about how he relates to peers and those around him. He seems to have a lot of difficulties surrounding social interaction.

 

[RusselSprout]

What Ive been wondering is how long the youth had been on logans life. The youth was with the Foster family last summer, and logan died July 31st that year.

I thought geez, the youth has joined jc and shortly after logan was murdered. But having looked back it seems the youth certainly knew logan before going into foster care, as he said to the foster family he wanted to kill logan.

Edited to add all MOO


Boy, 14, accused of Logan Mwangi murder 'threatened to kill foster family after watching The Purge' | Daily Mail Online

 

[Alicethroughtheglass]

The teen did what JC told him to do.
It seems to me he hero worshipped JC, followed him like a shadow.

What a pity the boy wasn't assigned to somebody else, a positive role model.

MOO

To me it appears the placement of this boy was one of the biggest failings on behalf of the social services involved which lead up to the death of Poor Logan.
<modsnip - personalizing> To say he wasn’t neglected is crazy considering they neglected to get him medical treatment, food and love and affection. Well documented. Neglect doesn’t mean the house is a mess and the kids dirty, and in my opinion Logan was suffering extremely from neglect- particularly the withholding of love and protection from his mother.

 

[Tortoise]

What Ive been wondering is how long the youth had been on logans life. The youth was with the Foster family last summer, and logan died July 31st that year.

I thought geez, the youth has joined jc and shortly after logan was murdered. But having looked back it seems the youth certainly knew logan before going into foster care, as he said to the foster family he wanted to kill logan.

Edited to add all MOO


Boy, 14, accused of Logan Mwangi murder 'threatened to kill foster family after watching The Purge' | Daily Mail Online

AW called the police in January 2021 to report that the youth had pushed Logan down the stairs and was responsible for Logan's broken humerus and dislocated shoulder in August 2020. So that was at least a year before the murder that he was in Logan's life.

 

[katydid23]

Having 'a learning disability' here in the UK doesn't define a person as "simple minded or slow" ... one of my daughters has a learning disability - dyslexia - she still has a degree and a masters degree and is working as a young persons mental health therapist.

Right, but dyslexia would not mean that someone should not be culpable in a murder case because they had a disability. Whereas someone who was delayed mentally, and slow to comprehend things, might be held less responsible, because of that particular disability.

I am saying that this particular youth is very perceptive and seems to be intelligent with good memory skills and a competent comprehension level. No reason to believe that he didn't know what was going on around him in that small house.

 

[Bluebear15]

I'm sorry but that still doesn't make a 13 year old 'nearly a full grown man' nor does it change the fact that a young person's brain isn't fully functioning until their early twenties.

That's scientific fact.

Can you provide a reliable link please?

I owned my own home in my early 20s and was degree educated (the same as a lot of people). Some people have their own family. I would've found it very patronising to be considered a child.

Imo it's an excuse to keep people out of prison as they are overflowing and we don't have the land space to build more.

 

[mrazda71]

Right, but dyslexia would not mean that someone should not be culpable in a murder case because they had a disability. Whereas someone who was delayed mentally, and slow to comprehend things, might be held less responsible, because of that particular disability.

I am saying that this particular youth is very perceptive and seems to be intelligent with good memory skills and a competent comprehension level. No reason to believe that he didn't know what was going on around him in that small house.

I'm not really sure what Point you're trying to make?

The youth will have been assessed and deemed mentally capable of standing trial in an adult court.

We haven't been informed of any diagnosis for any of the defendants, least of all the child.

I personally, don't think we can really make any judgments on how savvy this boy is or not. For all we know, he could be unable to read or write but that wouldn't mean that he wouldn't know or be adept at lying if he was in trouble.

Some things are just human nature, especially in Children and even more so in children who've been raised in neglect, poverty and trauma. They are in survival mode.

 

[mrazda71]

Can you provide a reliable link please?

I owned my own home in my early 20s and was degree educated (the same as a lot of people). Some people have their own family. I would've found it very patronising to be considered a child.

Imo it's an excuse to keep people out of prison as they are overflowing and we don't have the land space to build more.

At no point did I say that someone in their early twenties should or was considered 'a child' - I stated that the human brain isn't fully functioning until the early twenties.

I'll edit and add a link but I'm sure you'd be able to Google it, it's not obscure information


edited to add link below

Adolescent Maturity and the Brain: The Promise and Pitfalls of Neuroscience Research in Adolescent Health Policy

 

[Alicethroughtheglass]

Can you provide a reliable link please?

I owned my own home in my early 20s and was degree educated (the same as a lot of people). Some people have their own family. I would've found it very patronising to be considered a child.

Imo it's an excuse to keep people out of prison as they are overflowing and we don't have the land space to build more.

Nobody is saying you were considered a child, just that scientifically the brain has physiological changes until that age.
Understanding the Teen Brain - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

 

[Bluebear15]

At no point did I say that someone in their early twenties should or was considered 'a child' - I stated that the human brain isn't fully functioning until the early twenties.

I'll edit and add a link but I'm sure you'd be able to Google it, it's not obscure information


edited to add link below

Adolescent Maturity and the Brain: The Promise and Pitfalls of Neuroscience Research in Adolescent Health Policy

One study is not classed as scientific fact. Just ask the medical community about Andrew Wakefield.

 

[neteditor]

One study is not classed as scientific fact. Just ask the medical community about Andrew Wakefield.

Posting one link doesn't mean there's only one study, either.

Maturation of the adolescent brain

 

[katydid23]

I'm not really sure what Point you're trying to make?

The youth will have been assessed and deemed mentally capable of standing trial in an adult court.

We haven't been informed of any diagnosis for any of the defendants, least of all the child.

I personally, don't think we can really make any judgments on how savvy this boy is or not. For all we know, he could be unable to read or write but that wouldn't mean that he wouldn't know or be adept at lying if he was in trouble.

Some things are just human nature, especially in Children and even more so in children who've been raised in neglect, poverty and trauma. They are in survival mode.

The point I am trying to make is the one you just stated:
"The youth will have been assessed and deemed mentally capable of standing trial in an adult court."

This defendant is mentally capable of standing trial and I do believe he is culpable.
I don't think it matters if he can read or write---[although I am sure if he could not, we would have likely been told so by his social workers.]

I am sad that he was raised in such difficult circumstances. My heart goes out to him. That is sad. However he still was making his own choices in his daily life.

There are many, many children like him, raised in dire circumstances. And when they grow into teens, they start making their own choices in life. He had a social worker trying to be supportive and accepting, placing him in a normal family life. But he reacted threateningly towards them. He was leaning towards aggression.

I was the victim of childhood sexual abuse by a close family member, as a very young child. It went on for a few years, as he was our after school babysitter. I could have become an abuser myself, and continued that incestuous cycle. I had to make very intentional personal choices as a young teen, to NOT BE AN OFFENDER myself, because one's first impulse is to act out promiscuously, innapropriately, because that is how you were 'taught' during formative years by your role models.

So I get it. I get what you are saying. But we cannot just let people use that as an excuse. Once you turn 12, 13, 14, you are becoming an individual and need to make your own daily choices. Even if your impulse is to lash out, be aggressive, be negative----you have to reach out to the few people in your life---like teachers and counsellors and neighbours, that are trying to extend you their hand. Let them help you.

This youthful defender did not make that choice. He revelled in the aggression he was being taught. He sang about how he loved to punch children. When people welcomed him into their family he told them he was going to kill them. That was the choice that he was making at that time. He was enjoying being the bully. JMO

 

[mrazda71]

The point I am trying to make is the one you just stated:
"The youth will have been assessed and deemed mentally capable of standing trial in an adult court."

This defendant is mentally capable of standing trial and I do believe he is culpable.
I don't think it matters if he can read or write---[although I am sure if he could not, we would have likely been told so by his social workers.]

I am sad that he was raised in such difficult circumstances. My heart goes out to him. That is sad. However he still was making his own choices in his daily life.

There are many, many children like him, raised in dire circumstances. And when they grow into teens, they start making their own choices in life. He had a social worker trying to be supportive and accepting, placing him in a normal family life. But he reacted threateningly towards them. He was leaning towards aggression.

I was the victim of childhood sexual abuse by a close family member, as a very young child. It went on for a few years, as he was our after school babysitter. I could have become an abuser myself, and continued that incestuous cycle. I had to make very intentional personal choices as a young teen, to NOT BE AN OFFENDER myself, because one's first impulse is to act out promiscuously, innapropriately, because that is how you were 'taught' during formative years by your role models.

So I get it. I get what you are saying. But we cannot just let people use that as an excuse. Once you turn 12, 13, 14, you are becoming an individual and need to make your own daily choices. Even if your impulse is to lash out, be aggressive, be negative----you have to reach out to the few people in your life---like teachers and counsellors and neighbours, that are trying to extend you their hand. Let them help you.

This youthful defender did not make that choice. He revelled in the aggression he was being taught. He sang about how he loved to punch children. When people welcomed him into their family he told them he was going to kill them. That was the choice that he was making at that time. He was enjoying being the bully. JMO

Firstly I'm sorry for the experience you had.

Secondly, I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing that the youth isn't culpable or capable of making good or bad choices - I'm saying neither.

My point was very clear - at 13 he was violently beaten by his mother and removed from her care for HIS safety - He was the victim and no one should be inventing worst case scenarios that might make it okay for his mother to have done that to him.

Thirdly - another poster said that 14 year olds were "nearly grown men" and that is just in every way, false.

We need to stick to the facts, don't we?
Base our opinions on what little we know from the reporting... not make up inaccurate and baseless imaginings.

 

[Jay_Tec]

To me it appears the placement of this boy was one of the biggest failings on behalf of the social services involved which lead up to the death of Poor Logan.
<modsnip> To say he wasn’t neglected is crazy considering they neglected to get him medical treatment, food and love and affection. Well documented. Neglect doesn’t mean the house is a mess and the kids dirty, and in my opinion Logan was suffering extremely from neglect- particularly the withholding of love and protection from his mother.

<modsnip>

My point was - Logan did not suffer from a lack of provision that hundreds of thousands of children here in the UK every day do. He did not go to sleep with an empty belly because there was no food. He did not go to school barefoot because he had no shoes. He did not smell because he was not washed. He did not worry where he would sleep at night because his mother had no home. He did not have to sleep cold in the back of a car because his mother was made homeless. That is reality for children here in the UK. Logan was not affected by those issues.

His mother appeared to love him. She cuddled him, touched him, dressed him, fed him, washed him, showed affection, and raised him well. She did fail to protect him because of her delusion of a happy family and need for a man at all costs.

Logan was MURDERED by violent offenders inside his own home, abusers, predators, bullies, who groomed his vulnerable and inadequate mother into this situation over time.

The biggest neglect was perpetrated by social services.

 

[Alyce]

Adding what will - hopefully - be the link for today - no reporting as yet



Philip DeweyCourt Correspondent

Conor GogartySenior reporter

• Updated10:35, 29 MAR 2022

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[Alicethroughtheglass]

When a person writes 'you need to learn... x, y, z...' they have made a poor argument and gone personal. That is offensive as, in this instance you know nothing of me and what I do or don't know. The way to argue a point is to say 'I strongly disagree with the statement ...' and set forth your own views, opinions, ideas.

I do not agree that AW's failure to seek medical attention for Logan's severe injuries was incurred due to a neglectful attitude. She was knowingly covering up a crime.

There are some parents who absolutely neglect their children and would have no idea if the child was in pain, or had been injured, because they are too busy doing other things or don't care. For example parents who are absent for long periods, parents who leave their children unattended, parents who are in drug addiction etc. That is not the case here. AW was wilfully covering up an injury that she knew was causing Logan pain because she CHOSE not to take him to hospital because she was covering up a crime. IMOO

Sometimes I find it easier to assume people already know what I mean, and if not perhaps they might benefit from their own research rather than believing the opinions of anonymous strangers. I apologise that it came across that way, however I’m not sure we would agree regardless of my phrasing.