UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[Seattle1]

And I would also add:

"Wouldn't I call the Police if I knew it was Logan's body JC carried?"
It was simply priceless.

The youth has clearly demonstrated that he knows right from wrong: he knew that fly-tipping was illegal and punishable by a fine, and sweat/fingerprints (forensic evidence) should be avoided.

Also, I think after-the-fact, he regrets telling authorities they returned to the river to check on whether or not the bags sank--- realizing too late it was too dark to see the black bags!

In the earlier interviews, I think the youth testified according to the rehearsed plan but days later, after learning JC had told authorities differently, he changed his testimony too -- suggesting he believed he was dreaming to account for the earlier discrepancy.

And he's most careful to support JC's word over and above anything stated by AW.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

The youth has clearly demonstrated that he knows right from wrong: he knew that fly-tipping was illegal and punishable by a fine, and sweat/fingerprints (forensic evidence) should be avoided.

Also, I think after-the-fact, he regrets telling authorities they returned to the river to check on whether or not the bags sank--- realizing too late it was too dark to see the black bags!

In the earlier interviews, I think the youth testified according to the rehearsed plan but days later, after learning JC had told authorities differently, he changed his testimony too -- suggesting he believed he was dreaming to account for the earlier discrepancy.

And he's most careful to support JC's word over and above anything stated by AW.

MOO

When I read about this "dream", I immediately thought about Ted B who described his murders in the 3rd person - hypothetically.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[mrazda71]

Youth: “No, I wouldn’t have touched (Logan) except for giving him a hug.”

What an absolute piece of work this kid is. Such manipulation and front.

I think it shows perfectly that he's a child.

13 ... over the age of criminal responsibility? yes.

'Old enough to know bettet? ... such an odd phrase IMO.

I think some here misinterpret my empathy for this child as sympathy or excusing his part in Logans ill treatment and death.

I don't excuse the child of any responsibility at all but, I certainly hold the 2 adults involved (and any adults who witnessed Logans treatment & deterioration and did nothing) to a much higher level of responsibility.

 

[mrazda71]

Referring to deceased LM as an A'hole in his Police interviews just about sums this kid up imo.

He was answering retrospectively ... he was answering with more honesty than other times and likely repeating what he's heard said by the adults.

<modsnip: rude and personalizing>

 

[Alyce]

snipped from Net’s earlier court report


DC Saunders: “Do you know what a court is?”

Youth: “so you can get put to jail



Interesting insight into the youth’s mindset. I think the majority of people would say a court is a place where justice is found. He immediately thinks of the negative connotation.

 

[mrazda71]

snipped from Net’s earlier court report


DC Saunders: “Do you know what a court is?”

Youth: “so you can get put to jail



Interesting insight into the youth’s mindset. I think the majority of people would say a court is a place where justice is found. He immediately thinks of the negative connotation.

I think the majority of children, raised in poverty and in areas as run down as Bridgend would think differently.

 

[Jay_Tec]

"I sometimes struggle with my words.” (self piteous excuse when caught out on a verbal error - said 'we' instead of 'he')

“Do you expect me to have a watch on and check all the time…. You have CCTV there you can look.” (sarcastic challenging)

“Yeah, I don’t know sorry.” (evasive when asked if Logan cried)

"I don’t know what about. I kind of just left them to it.” (evasive again)

"I’m not sure. I’m sorry I don’t know really.” (evasive)

“I don’t want to say he was being an arse because he’s not here, I don’t know how to put it without offending him or disrespecting him. " (obsequious and ludicrous)

"I don’t know whether I’m crossing it and getting my nights and days mixed" (evasive)

“No, don’t you think I would have phoned the police?” (sarcastic, ludicrous, challenging)

“To be honest I thought it was just me, thinking I was dreaming at first..." (ludicrous)

“No, I wouldn’t have touched (Logan) except for giving him a hug.” (obsequious)

"I didn’t want her having a seizure outside the house where it’s hard concrete. I said ‘I am asking you nicely, please please go back in’.” (obsequious)

“No, (Cole) did not lay a hand on him.” (loyally defending JC)

“(Cole) is the most understanding about his stutter. No, (Cole) did not touch him.” (obsequious, loyally defending JC)


I think it's clear to see a pattern of which defences the Youth uses.


All of the above were taken from the Wales OnLine published court transcripts, link below.

 

[tedtink]

snipped from Net’s earlier court report


DC Saunders: “Do you know what a court is?”

Youth: “so you can get put to jail



Interesting insight into the youth’s mindset. I think the majority of people would say a court is a place where justice is found. He immediately thinks of the negative connotation.

Possibly because they'd talked about going to jail if they didn't keep to the 'story'.
JMO

 

[Jay_Tec]

The Youth has revealed in the early questioning that he knows the difference between honesty and dishonesty and whether someone is perceived as honest or not.

He also pointed the discrepancy in 'postman' not 'policeman'. He has shown capacity for remembering detail (Logan's bedding) and having accurate memory recall.

Therefore he cannot later argue a severe learning disability or mental health problem that prevents him discerning things in general.

 

[Bluedaisy100]

He's laying it on a little thick. Quite a contrast to the reports of his behavior at the foster home and with other people. He really wants to stay with Cole. He must let him do what he wants without much expectation.

 

[Dotta]

He was answering retrospectively ... he was answering with more honesty than other times and likely repeating what he's heard said by the adults.

No need to be melodramatic

I thought exactly the same.

Besides, he was very careful at the beginning to talk about Logan using "proper" language.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

 

[neteditor]

snipped from Net’s earlier court report


DC Saunders: “Do you know what a court is?”

Youth: “so you can get put to jail



Interesting insight into the youth’s mindset. I think the majority of people would say a court is a place where justice is found. He immediately thinks of the negative connotation.

I gain no insight from his comment other than he's known people all his young life who have indeed been sent to jail by a court.

 

[Jay_Tec]

snipped from Net’s earlier court report


DC Saunders: “Do you know what a court is?”

Youth: “so you can get put to jail



Interesting insight into the youth’s mindset. I think the majority of people would say a court is a place where justice is found. He immediately thinks of the negative connotation.

Those type of preliminary questions are usually to set the tone - to reveal someone's mental state, alertness, awareness, reality testing, capacity to see how other people view things (ie. ability to speculate on another's thoughts, he is not 'mind blind'). Severely challenged or disabled people can't manage any of that.

All of those preliminary questions revealed the Youth is aware of reality, has capacity to answer questions, knows where he is, and is able to understand what is happening, as well as much more - he understands the difference between an accidental error and telling a lie, he understands people will be considering these type of issues.

 

[LucyRocket]

One of the first things the prosecution did in the trial was to take the jury to Bridgend to see the house for themselves. Is Bridgend close to Cardiff where the trial is? I look on google maps after this. But I wondered how necessary that was. Now I'm seeing how with all of them with different versions. How the youth never heard this or AW didn't know what JC was doing to Logan. How all them had to have known most if not all of what happened. This wasn't a silent drowning incident. As the neighbors reported they carried on loudly. So the jury would find it hard to believe that in that small of a one story house that none of these stories are possible.

The jury are always taken to the location of the crime. It helps them to place it in real terms

 

[Jay_Tec]

I think it shows perfectly that he's a child.

13 ... over the age of criminal responsibility? yes.

'Old enough to know bettet? ... such an odd phrase IMO.

I think some here misinterpret my empathy for this child as sympathy or excusing his part in Logans ill treatment and death.

I don't excuse the child of any responsibility at all but, I certainly hold the 2 adults involved (and any adults who witnessed Logans treatment & deterioration and did nothing) to a much higher level of responsibility.

I don't know where you live but I live in a city where 14 year olds are pretty much fully grown men and very streetwise. I'm not feeling sympathy / empathy like you are towards the Youth as if he were a say, 10 year old who was led astray. He's a violent near-grown man and he needs to be urgently stopped. The pity party can happen afterwards. It is clear from questioning that it is possible the Youth dealt the fatal blows in Logan's bedroom.

 

[LucyRocket]

That is my opinion too.

I would like to know why they could not put the rubbish he said was in black bin bags in the garden in a wheelie bin.

We have a blue one for recycling and a black one for non recyclable rubbish

Fly tipping has become a real issue here, since the council put in restrictions of only being allowed to put out 1 bag of general rubbish per week, collected 3-weekly

 

[Jay_Tec]

I thought exactly the same.

Besides, he was very particular at the beginning to talk about Logan using "proper" language.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates

Being obsequious is his little party trick. I don't know what this youth looks like obviously but I imagine he's had a childhood of pulling a cute face, speaking in the baby voice that has already been described, batting his eyelids, and charming people with his oh so innocent asides.

 

[Alyce]

Those type of preliminary questions are usually to set the tone - to reveal someone's mental state, alertness, awareness, reality testing, capacity to see how other people view things (ie. ability to speculate on another's thoughts, he is not 'mind blind'). Severely challenged or disabled people can't manage any of that.

All of those preliminary questions revealed the Youth is aware of reality, has capacity to answer questions, knows where he is, and is able to understand what is happening, as well as much more - he understands the difference between an accidental error and telling a lie, he understands people will be considering these type of issues.

yes I did understand the reason for the question, but I found it interesting how the youth immediately jumped to the most negative explanation. A reflection of how his life had gone downhill I guess, or as Ted says, what he had picked up from the other two accused.

 

[neteditor]

I don't know where you live but I live in a city where 14 year olds are pretty much fully grown men and very streetwise. I'm not feeling sympathy / empathy like you are towards the Youth as if he were a say, 10 year old who was led astray. He's a violent near-grown man and he needs to be urgently stopped. The pity party can happen afterwards. It is clear from questioning that it is possible the Youth dealt the fatal blows in Logan's bedroom.

MOO... children who have been through horrific lives of abuse, insecure attachments, loss of caregivers and heaven knows what else are entitled to empathy, no matter what they've done. We don't know that whatever he has been through has created this "monster" he may (OR MAY NOT) have turned into. His life was already in pieces before he was placed in this household.

 

[Dotta]

Being obsequious is his little party trick. I don't know what this youth looks like obviously but I imagine he's had a childhood of pulling a cute face, speaking in the baby voice that has already been described, batting his eyelids, and charming people with his oh so innocent asides.

Sly and cunning but I guess it was his survival mode helping him in his obviously troubled life.