UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[HongKongPhooey]

Well yeah, she can hardly say she was coerced into 'sleeping' through it all that night.

No but she might say he made her do it. Hopefully no one would believe that.

What are you thinking, @neteditor ?

 

[tedtink]

No but she might say he made her do it. Hopefully no one would believe that.

What are you thinking, @neteditor ?

I guess so, but it wouldn't help his case, her having slept all night.
Jeez, it's a mess!

 

[wowiezowie]

It's so obvious JC is lying through his teeth. Painting himself as the perfect step father is ridiculous. I guess it's now a case of who's version of events will the jury believe, JC or AW? The youth denies knowing anything but I think he's going to back up JC's version.

 

[neteditor]

No but she might say he made her do it. Hopefully no one would believe that.

What are you thinking, @neteditor ?

Probably nothing too original TBH. I think she's tied herself up in a whole bundle of knots defending JC in the past, perhaps believing he would choose her over the youth when it came to who to blame. I'm guessing she realised from his interviews that she was the one going under the bus, and she needed a new story. One that absolves her of as much responsibility as possible. Maybe it's going to be a combination of mental health and coercive control? I just feel like another different version of events will come out. The problem now is, who is going to believe it? Also expecting a lot of am dram!

 

[ChloLo]

If she completely changes her story it will raise a lot of questions. Outlines of your intended defence must be submitted in advance of trial to give the other parties adequate time to prepare to cross examine.

 

[bos]

Thank you again for the updates @Sooty , I really appreciate being able to catch up in a chronological order.

<modsnip>

JC’s barely concealed hostility to the cross examination somewhat telling!Agree LM very unlikely to have made comments re AW & his bio dad unsolicited.

 

[neteditor]

If she completely changes her story it will raise a lot of questions. Outlines of your intended defence must be submitted in advance of trial to give the other parties adequate time to prepare to cross examine.

Does something make you think that hasn't happened? We're not going to hear her defence until it's her turn, but her counsel's questioning seems to make it clear (to me, anyway) where that's heading. Perhaps the adjournment earlier for her counsel was connected to this? Either way, if she is alleging coercive control, I can't imagine there's much evidence JC's team can come up with against that other than his word on the stand. Perhaps that is the sole reason he is taking the stand.

 

[Alyce]

Me too.

Whilst I understand that this doesn’t mean there wasn’t any coercion, this quote from yesterday rings true to me about her character:

RSBM

…….In a previous document, Williamson was described as the following: “Ms Williamson is very much her own person and knows to voice her concerns as required.

Prosecution closes cases in Logan Mwangi murder trial

From everything we know I would agree with that. I don't think AW was in any way frightened of JC or being coerced by him. Anything she did, cutting off from family etc, was her choice.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Does something make you think that hasn't happened? We're not going to hear her defence until it's her turn, but her counsel's questioning seems to make it clear (to me, anyway) where that's heading. Perhaps the adjournment earlier for her counsel was connected to this? Either way, if she is alleging coercive control, I can't imagine there's much evidence JC's team can come up with against that other than his word on the stand. Perhaps that is the sole reason he is taking the stand.

i thought the same. I think at the very least she has to change her story from asleep all night to being up and being part of the concocted plot - which she is then going to try to pin on him. My concern about this coming up at this stage is that there need to be some compelling evidence this is the case, or her barrister is going to have to mount an extremely good narrative as to why she adamantly stuck to her story at the time. Because otherwise it could be interpreted as her having only changed her story for the court after she had heard the rest of the evidence (all of which was put to her when she made her initial statements). I did wonder whether that was what the legal submissions today were. Especially since I think previously her barrister was trying to attack her phone data indicating she was up all night. I hope she hasn’t changed this late in the day or it’s going to be a bit of a nightmare for her defence to make this all seem coherent and genuine and the TRUTH as opposed to just changing her story. Although maybe she sticks with what she initially said and she’s going to try to pin it all on him and claim he used her phone?!

 

[neteditor]

i thought the same. I think at the very least she has to change her story from asleep all night to being up and being part of the concocted plot - which she is then going to try to pin on him. My concern about this coming up at this stage is that there need to be some compelling evidence this is the case, or her barrister is going to have to mount an extremely good narrative as to why she adamantly stuck to her story at the time. Because otherwise it could be interpreted as her having only changed her story for the court after she had heard the rest of the evidence (all of which was put to her when she made her initial statements). I did wonder whether that was what the legal submissions today were. Especially since I think previously her barrister was trying to attack her phone data indicating she was up all night. I hope she hasn’t changed this late in the day or it’s going to be a bit of a nightmare for her defence to make this all seem coherent and genuine and the TRUTH as opposed to just changing her story. Although maybe she sticks with what she initially said and she’s going to try to pin it all on him and claim he used her phone?!

And not forgetting the old "fail to mention anything... which may be used against you in court." Very difficult at this stage, but it's not uncommon. The Helen Bailey trial is one I can think of recently, defendant suddenly had a new story about a kidnap threat when it came to trial!

 

[mrazda71]

BBM.
Whoahhh.
Made it look like we were looking for Logan.
Has he slipped up there or just admitted the youth knew? The youth genuinely thought LM was missing didn't he?

He said 'we' because they were 'both' out - he was definitely pretending to look for Logan but he wouldn't say 'I' because he wasn't alone .... on its own, it's not damning in any way.

Just thinking about the youths testimony again. If he thought that the bags contained polystyrene and broken toys (probably plastic) why would they go back to see if they had sunk. Surely they would float unless weighted down. Also corroborates that Logan went into the water, not placed at the side.

BBM - they would be checking that the bags had floated down stream, not snagged on something or stuck on a mud bank, not sunk.

 

[ChloLo]

Does something make you think that hasn't happened? We're not going to hear her defence until it's her turn, but her counsel's questioning seems to make it clear (to me, anyway) where that's heading. Perhaps the adjournment earlier for her counsel was connected to this? Either way, if she is alleging coercive control, I can't imagine there's much evidence JC's team can come up with against that other than his word on the stand. Perhaps that is the sole reason he is taking the stand.

I couldn’t possibly comment on why there were legal submissions without the jury today, it could have been a number of things. I was just outlining that the intended defence is submitted in advance. So for her story to change this late in the day it would raise a lot of questions and as has been raised by Sherlockhames one of those questions would be why change her story now?

 

[Tortoise]

Does something make you think that hasn't happened? We're not going to hear her defence until it's her turn, but her counsel's questioning seems to make it clear (to me, anyway) where that's heading. Perhaps the adjournment earlier for her counsel was connected to this? Either way, if she is alleging coercive control, I can't imagine there's much evidence JC's team can come up with against that other than his word on the stand. Perhaps that is the sole reason he is taking the stand.

It seems as if there has been one change since agreed facts were read into the record yesterday - (Prosecution closes cases in Logan Mwangi murder trial )

Formal admissions and agreed facts
Ms Pickthal reads out a list of formal admissions and agreed facts - information agreed by all the barristers in the case.

[...]

It was agreed Logan was taken to the hospital by Williamson for a dislocated shoulder which he sustained at 5pm on August 15.

Williamson had tried to put it back in place, put it in a sling and gave Logan Calpol.


Today - ( Logan Mwangi murder trial continues with defendant giving evidence )

Mr Rouch said: “You said because of your experience in the SAS you could put the arm back in and strap it up.”

Cole said: “I wouldn’t have popped his shoulder, I didn’t do his arm…. I was the one who said Angharad needed to take his arm to the hospital.” ...

Mr Rouch said: “She said because of your convictions she said she would say she had put the arm back in.”

Cole said: “No.”

 

[JuicyLucy]

I have to admit I'm on the fence about the idea of AW being under JC's coercive control, but I do think it will form the backbone of her defence.

Fwiw, I don't believe people "get themselves into" coercive relationships so much as being targeted by abusers, although I do think abusers are inclined to target a victim who's already in a vulnerable state, and coming out of a bad relationship would qualify AW as that. So I do believe this was a coercive relationship but I don't think that tells the whole story of what happened by a long chalk.

However, this is a genuine question for those of you who don't believe she was under his control: why do you think the character of her relationship with Logan changed so much in the time she was with JC? By all accounts Logan was a thriving, happy boy living in a happy home with a decent mother in 2019. Why did things change if not through JC's influence?

JMO

 

[ChloLo]

And not forgetting the old "fail to mention anything... which may be used against you in court." Very difficult at this stage, but it's not uncommon. The Helen Bailey trial is one I can think of recently, defendant suddenly had a new story about a kidnap threat when it came to trial!

Frankie Smith also came out with new evidence during her testimony in the star hobson case. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. More that the court/jury may be somewhat skeptical if she does.

 

[RusselSprout]

I have to admit I'm on the fence about the idea of AW being under JC's coercive control, but I do think it will form the backbone of her defence.

Fwiw, I don't believe people "get themselves into" coercive relationships so much as being targeted by abusers, although I do think abusers are inclined to target a victim who's already in a vulnerable state, and coming out of a bad relationship would qualify AW as that. So I do believe this was a coercive relationship but I don't think that tells the whole story of what happened by a long chalk.

However, this is a genuine question for those of you who don't believe she was under his control: why do you think the character of her relationship with Logan changed so much in the time she was with JC? By all accounts Logan was a thriving, happy boy living in a happy home with a decent mother in 2019. Why did things change if not through JC's influence?

JMO

I think her relationship with Logan changed just because she a selfish witch and put her own desire for a relationship above her relationship with her son.

 

[Bluedaisy100]

She and Logan were living with her mother until JC came into the picture. She seems like she was a doting grandmother to him. I assume living with her mother gave her more help with child care. So Logan being well cared for might be down to her not AW.

 

[ChloLo]

It seems as if there has been one change since agreed facts were read into the record yesterday - (Prosecution closes cases in Logan Mwangi murder trial )

Formal admissions and agreed facts
Ms Pickthal reads out a list of formal admissions and agreed facts - information agreed by all the barristers in the case.

[...]

It was agreed Logan was taken to the hospital by Williamson for a dislocated shoulder which he sustained at 5pm on August 15.

Williamson had tried to put it back in place, put it in a sling and gave Logan Calpol.


Today - ( Logan Mwangi murder trial continues with defendant giving evidence )

Mr Rouch said: “You said because of your experience in the SAS you could put the arm back in and strap it up.”

Cole said: “I wouldn’t have popped his shoulder, I didn’t do his arm…. I was the one who said Angharad needed to take his arm to the hospital.” ...

Mr Rouch said: “She said because of your convictions she said she would say she had put the arm back in.”

Cole said: “No.”

I think looking at the testimony it’s two different incidents but I could be wrong. The august incident where she tried to pop his shoulder back in Logan was definitely taken to hospital as that when the referral was made to social services. Then the second incident, the more recent break to the clavicle was when Logan “fell of a wheelchair” and he wasn’t taken to hospital.

 

[Tortoise]

I think looking at the testimony it’s two different incidents but I could be wrong. The august incident where she tried to pop his shoulder back in Logan was definitely taken to hospital as that when the referral was made to social services. Then the second incident, the more recent break to the clavicle was when Logan “fell of a wheelchair” and he wasn’t taken to hospital.

The testimony does make it clear that part of the cross-examination was about the August 2020 'falling down stairs' incident., which was the same incident talked about in the agreed facts.

in full -

'I said you need to take him to hospital because it’s not right'

Mr Rouch said: “When Logan damaged his arm, you and Angharad were in the kitchen.”

Cole agreed.

Mr Rouch said: “You heard a thud, something had happened, where was Logan?”

Cole said: “He was on the landing in the middle.”

Mr Rouch said: “Was his arm floppy?”

Cole said: “Yes.”

Mr Rouch said: “Did you and Angharad look to see what the damage was?”

Cole said: “Angharad put his arm back in the socket.”

Mr Rouch said: “Did you see what the problem was?”

Cole said: “I didn’t do nothing with his arm.”

Mr Rouch said: “You said because of your experience in the SAS you could put the arm back in and strap it up.”

Cole said: “I wouldn’t have popped his shoulder, I didn’t do his arm…. I was the one who said Angharad needed to take his arm to the hospital.”

Mr Rouch said: “You were both reluctant to go to hospital because of Covid.”

Cole said: “I said you need to take him to hospital because it’s not right.”

Mr Rouch said: “She said because of your convictions she said she would say she had put the arm back in.”

Cole said: “No.”

Logan Mwangi murder trial continues with defendant giving evidence

 

[Seattle1]

Mr Rouch said: “It’s not a question of you kept on about it, it’s not a question you kept pressing Logan about it ‘Did you see Mummy and Daddy kissing’, and you carried on doing that during your relationship with Angharad, you would get fixated on it and constantly ask Logan about it?”

Cole said: “No.”

^^ sbbm
Bingo! I called it earlier. I have no doubt that upon their return, JC quizzed Logan--planted this seed, and proceeded to repeatedly bring up this subject for over two years. At Logan's age, he'd want to please JC and give him the answer that JC wanted. I'm shattered at the cruelty this lovely child was subjected to.