UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #3

[Alicethroughtheglass]

I’m interested in others thoughts on AW being a ‘good mum up until (the incidents)’ obviously there is no social services involvement at first, and witnesses say she was ok. However I don’t think this holds much weight as to what a ‘good mum’ means? Logan was only 3 when JC came on the scene and there was involvement from SS soon after. By the time Logan was 3 AW had already broken up with BM and married and divorced another person which was an abusive relationship . To me there’s already a lot going on there in Logan’s life, im not sure how wonderful things were previously. Also in my personal experience some parents, mums included, really aren’t so interested in their children once they pass the baby/toddler stage.

 

[Doris777]

What are the charges agains all 3 of them? Only asking as it's just been on TV about baby Ps mum being released from prison. (Another horrible abuse story)! The lady explained because no one could pin point who killed him all 3 of them where charged with allowing the death of a child. Not murder because they can't say who made the final blow. I thought it would be the same with Logan? But Im.not sure of the charges against these 3.

 

[Doris777]

DBM

 

[Sherlockhames]

DBM

The charges against the 3 are all the same-
PTCOJ - JC admitted, other 2 deny.
Murder - all there on trial for this
Causing death of a child - my understanding is that any of them is not found guilty of murder jury could still find them guilty of causing the death of a a child. So we could end up in the scenario where all 3 are deemed by the jury to have issued blows that caused his death or a combination of some found guilty of murder and some just “causing death” (by failing to get help for instance or causing injury that contributed to his death but maybe wasn’t fatal on its own?). I’ll be very interested to hear the judges remarks and summing up and jury directions etc because I am not sure it is clear even to the police/CPS what exactly happened and who is responsible. So it is kind of down to the jury to determine who is culpable and by how much (although the CPS clearly think each responsible for up to murder as that is what they have each been charged with eg if it was obvious one had a lesser involvement then they wouldn’t have been charged with murder. Does that make sense?)

 

[Alyce]

One thing that keeps niggling away at me; when did JC and/or AW have time to supposedly coach the youth so comprehensively in what to say to the police?

Even though police did basic questioning on the Saturday, they didn't get arrested until the Sunday - so plenty of time to fine tune their story.

 

[Doris777]

The charges against the 3 are all the same-
PTCOJ - JC admitted, other 2 deny.
Murder - all there on trial for this
Causing death of a child - my understanding is that any of them is not found guilty of murder jury could still find them guilty of causing the death of a a child. So we could end up in the scenario where all 3 are deemed by the jury to have issued blows that caused his death or a combination of some found guilty of murder and some just “causing death” (by failing to get help for instance or causing injury that contributed to his death but maybe wasn’t fatal on its own?). I’ll be very interested to hear the judges remarks and summing up and jury directions etc because I am not sure it is clear even to the police/CPS what exactly happened and who is responsible. So it is kind of down to the jury to determine who is culpable and by how much (although the CPS clearly think each responsible for up to murder as that is what they have each been charged with eg if it was obvious one had a lesser involvement then they wouldn’t have been charged with murder. Does that make sense?)

So all 3 have the same charges of murder, allowing the death of a child and perverting justice.?

I've just been listening to someone explain it and makes sence. I don't think anyone could say who actually killed logan from looking at all the evidence. So the charge of causing the death of a child would apply to all 3...?!

Will be interesting to hear what happens today.

 

[Sherlockhames]

So all 3 have the same charges of murder, allowing the death of a child and perverting justice.?

I've just been listening to someone explain it and makes sence. I don't think anyone could say who actually killed logan from looking at all the evidence. So the charge of causing the death of a child would apply to all 3...?!

Will be interesting to hear what happens today.

Yes - all three have the same charges. And if the jury can’t come to a decision on maybe who dealt the fatal blows then they can still be found guilty of causing his death.

 

[Dotta]

Yes - all three have the same charges. And if the jury can’t come to a decision on maybe who dealt the fatal blows then they can still be found guilty of causing his death.

Does it mean life sentence??

 

[katydid23]

One thing that keeps niggling away at me; when did JC and/or AW have time to supposedly coach the youth so comprehensively in what to say to the police?

I think Logan was unconscious for quite awhile and they both knew he was going to pass. In fact, I think they were impatiently waiting for him to do so. They probably rehearsed their stories during that time. JMO

 

[JuicyLucy]

I think cole has been the only one honest enough to admit his part in the crime tho..the others haven't.

rsbm

He didn't have much choice. He was caught on CCTV carrying a dead body he'd previously pretended he had no knowledge of. That's pragmatism, not honesty.

 

[katydid23]

Yes - this is where I am too. She might have even been a bit low level spiteful, but nothing dangerous. I think she probably was a good mum and certainly cared, but maybe got frustrated with him sometimes and this is what JC has built on. So maybe JCs testimony isn’t a total fabrication but contains a bit more embellishment of her role and minimising of his - and certainly writing the youth out of the picture completely. But I’m still inclined to believe JC and the youth were responsible but so is she for not doing anything to protect her son.
But I also get the impression there is a lot more being said in the courtroom which is not being reported which may make this a bit clearer for the courtroom.

"She might have even been a bit low level spiteful, but nothing dangerous. I think she probably was a good mum and certainly cared, but maybe got frustrated with him sometimes..."

Sorry, but it is really hard for me to see her as a 'good mum' who certainly cared about her child. He was lying on his death bed, with 56 bruises and several broken bones and severe internal injuries. And this mum is looking at YouTubes on her cell and waiting for him to pass away so they could dispose of him.

As you said above, 'she didnt do anything to protect her son'. So I cannot describe her as a good mum who cared about her boy. I think she is a pathetic excuse for a mother and I hope she gets a very long prison sentence.

She is actually the definition of 'dangerous', IMO

 

[Doris777]

rsbm

He didn't have much choice. He was caught on CCTV carrying a dead body he'd previously pretended he had no knowledge of. That's pragmatism, not honesty.

I get that and he's admitted that part. AW hasn't admitted to anything other than being asleep when she obviously wasn't

 

[mrazda71]

I think Logan was unconscious for quite awhile and they both knew he was going to pass. In fact, I think they were impatiently waiting for him to do so. They probably rehearsed their stories during that time. JMO

Respectfully, I disagree ... I think they couldn't have possibly known just how serious Logans internal injuries were. Not even medical professionals can assess internal injuries or beain injuries without a CT or MRI scan or an autopsy.

And ... if they had known Logan was fatally injured and were 'waiting' for him to die, they'd have been better prepared and planned for what came next.

This is no 3 way masterminded plan.

I don't believe the boy will have been in the thick of it for all of it.

I think he absolutely assaulted Logan but after that, went on about his normal day & night and when Logan was discovered dead, the 2 adults will have tried to - initially at least - keep the boy away while they decided what to do.

 

[ChloLo]

So all 3 have the same charges of murder, allowing the death of a child and perverting justice.?

I've just been listening to someone explain it and makes sence. I don't think anyone could say who actually killed logan from looking at all the evidence. So the charge of causing the death of a child would apply to all 3...?!

Will be interesting to hear what happens today.

The causing or allowing charge only relates to the adults - JC and AW.
The youth is only charged with PCOJ and murder.

I’m going to try and write a very quick explanation of causing or allowing death or serious physical harm.
Causing or allowing the death - is when person A is a part of the household (doesn’t have to live in the household), A is a risk to person B and person C knows about the risk but does nothing to protect person B.

Here’s the CPS guidelines:
Child Abuse (non-sexual) - prosecution guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[ChloLo]

Does it mean life sentence??

Some of the charges do, some don’t.
Murder - life sentence with a minimum term.
Alternate of manslaughter - up to a life sentence with a minimum term.
PCOJ - up to life with a minimum term.
Causing or allowing - up to 14 years.

 

[ChloLo]

One of the things that bothers me is the timing of AW watching the kidnapping, shaken baby and missing toddler videos on the 29th. It’s too coincidental that they are thrown in on the same day she claims Logan was badly assaulted by JC and the youth.

 

[mrazda71]

Some of the charges do, some don’t.
Murder - life sentence with a minimum term.
Alternate of manslaughter - up to a life sentence with a term.
PCOJ - up to life with a minimum term.
Causing or allowing - up to 14 years.

You are so well informed, do you have a law qualification?

 

[Doris777]

The causing or allowing charge only relates to the adults - JC and AW.
The youth is only charged with PCOJ and murder.

I’m going to try and write a very quick explanation of causing or allowing death or serious physical harm.
Causing or allowing the death - is when person A is a part of the household (doesn’t have to live in the household), A is a risk to person B and person C knows about the risk but does nothing to protect person B.

Here’s the CPS guidelines:
Child Abuse (non-sexual) - prosecution guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service

It was on TV this morning about the explanation. That's the only reason I asked. I wasn't sure of who was charged with what.

 

[ChloLo]

You are so well informed, do you have a law qualification?

Thank you, I have a level 3 in Law and google. ​

 

[Sherlockhames]

The causing or allowing charge only relates to the adults - JC and AW.
The youth is only charged with PCOJ and murder.

I’m going to try and write a very quick explanation of causing or allowing death or serious physical harm.
Causing or allowing the death - is when person A is a part of the household (doesn’t have to live in the household), A is a risk to person B and person C knows about the risk but does nothing to protect person B.

Here’s the CPS guidelines:
Child Abuse (non-sexual) - prosecution guidance | The Crown Prosecution Service

Ah - i did wonder about that. Because as you say he either dealt a fatal blow and is therefore guilty of murder, or if he wasn’t involved (other than the coverup) then he can’t be held responsible for not seeking attention for the actions of others because it wouldn’t have been his responsibility in a household of other adults to be looking out for Logan’s welfare. I thought he might have been charged with “causing death” if it is determined he was involved in assault but maybe not hard enough of it’s own to be the actual cause of death. But I don’t know enough about the minutiae of charges to know whether that could be a material difference (like what if the jury think eg the youth kicked Logan in the stomach but that this was not on its own the cause of death, it was violence inflicted later on by the adults in the household? Does that absolve him of causing the death of a child? Or are they different things? Does anyone on here have and answer?)