Found Deceased UK - Nicola Bulley Last Seen Walking Dog Near River - St Michaels on Wyre (Lancashire), Jan 2023 #18

[rockthecasbah]

In the UK, I find Coroners are unlikely to return verdicts of suicide unless it is 100% irrefutable. They are aware of just how distressing it is, and possible future ramifications for the families.

Can you explain?

 

[Beginnersleuth]

I would expect the inquest to be opened and adjourned in the next day or two. This is simply for the purposes of identification, and issue of an interim death certificate. This means she can be released to her family and they can make funeral arrangements.
There may well be simple results and cause of death from the PM.
The full inquest where all the evidence surrounding the death will be heard is likely to be six months or more.
That is when the Coroner will issue his formal verdict.
In the UK, I find Coroners are unlikely to return verdicts of suicide unless it is 100% irrefutable. They are aware of just how distressing it is, and possible future ramifications for the families.

JMO I’m not a pathologist but I cant see with drowning if you could tell between suicide and misadventure. So you’d err on misadventure for insurance and other purposes?
If was a clear overdose or ligature with suicide note left that would be different.

 

[Agatha3]

I would expect the inquest to be opened and adjourned in the next day or two. This is simply for the purposes of identification, and issue of an interim death certificate. This means she can be released to her family and they can make funeral arrangements.
There may well be simple results and cause of death from the PM.
The full inquest where all the evidence surrounding the death will be heard is likely to be six months or more.
That is when the Coroner will issue his formal verdict.
In the UK, I find Coroners are unlikely to return verdicts of suicide unless it is 100% irrefutable. They are aware of just how distressing it is, and possible future ramifications for the families.

Is that how Narrative Verdict came about? So an explanation of various factors but no suicide verdict?

 

[I wonder]

Can you explain?

The conclusion made by a coroner is a legal one. For a suicide verdict, they need evidence to show intent, including a suicide note, texts etc that essentially ‘prove’ that death was the intention. If it looks as though it was a cry for help, that someone had done this, believing they would be found and rescued, but sadly weren’t, that’s likely to be given a verdict of misadventure.

If the death is entirely unexpected and doesn’t fit the concept of it being suicide or misadventure, it’s usually an open verdict. This can involve someone with reckless behaviour, that may be high risk, but there’s no evidence of there being suicidal ideation.

Years ago when suicide was illegal, coroners and their early incarnations, were very reluctant to impose a verdict or suicide. Those who were given a verdict of suicide, weren’t allowed to be buried in consecrated ground, life insurance and even pensions were negated etc. It was also problematic in religion terms. The families would be treated badly etc.

People can seem, evidence wise to have taken their own lives, but unless there is essentially proof of intending to die, it can still be declared to have a verdict of misadventure.

 

[Agatha3]

Was just going to post this. Awful tragedy.

The conclusion made by a coroner is a legal one. For a suicide verdict, they need evidence to show intent, including a suicide note, texts etc that essentially ‘prove’ that death was the intention. If it looks as though it was a cry for help, that someone had done this, believing they would be found and rescued, but sadly weren’t, that’s likely to be given a verdict of misadventure.

If the death is entirely unexpected and doesn’t fit the concept of it being suicide or misadventure, it’s usually an open verdict. This can involve someone with reckless behaviour, that may be high risk, but there’s no evidence of there being suicidal ideation.

Years ago when suicide was illegal, coroners and their early incarnations, were very reluctant to impose a verdict or suicide. Those who were given a verdict of suicide, weren’t allowed to be buried in consecrated ground, life insurance and even pensions were negated etc. It was also problematic in religion terms. The families would be treated badly etc.

People can seem, evidence wise to have taken their own lives, but unless there is essentially proof of intending to die, it can still be declared to have a verdict of misadventure.

i Used to hate hearing verdict then… “while the balance of their mind was disturbed.”

 

[citygirl]

The conclusion made by a coroner is a legal one. For a suicide verdict, they need evidence to show intent, including a suicide note, texts etc that essentially ‘prove’ that death was the intention. If it looks as though it was a cry for help, that someone had done this, believing they would be found and rescued, but sadly weren’t, that’s likely to be given a verdict of misadventure.

If the death is entirely unexpected and doesn’t fit the concept of it being suicide or misadventure, it’s usually an open verdict. This can involve someone with reckless behaviour, that may be high risk, but there’s no evidence of there being suicidal ideation.

Years ago when suicide was illegal, coroners and their early incarnations, were very reluctant to impose a verdict or suicide. Those who were given a verdict of suicide, weren’t allowed to be buried in consecrated ground, life insurance and even pensions were negated etc. It was also problematic in religion terms. The families would be treated badly etc.

People can seem, evidence wise to have taken their own lives, but unless there is essentially proof of intending to die, it can still be declared to have a verdict of misadventure.

This is so informative. Do we the public really need to know if it was a suicidal ? I think not.
MOO.

 

[Beginnersleuth]

This is so informative. Do we the public really need to know if it was a suicidal ? I think not.
MOO.

We don’t. We only need to know if there was a third party or if any handling or other factors would have an effect on public safety going forwards. JMO

 

[Agatha3]

This is so informative. Do we the public really need to know if it was a suicidal ? I think not.
MOO.

No I guess the public just need to know there was no crime involved which is why inquests are public. And should there be records kept behind the scenes to see trends like the census?. We do know to be aware that young men of certain ages are more likely to end it all.

 

[bos]

This echoes what has been said re inquests upthread in a Lancashire context

What is an inquest and when does one need to be held

Inquests are held when a death is non-natural, unexpected or in any way suspicious

www.lancs.live

 

[citygirl]

This echoes what has been said re inquests upthread in a Lancashire context

What is an inquest and when does one need to be held

Inquests are held when a death is non-natural, unexpected or in any way suspicious

www.lancs.live

This is great. Never knew they could do noninvasive autopsy. Just total body CT Scans. Must be heart warming for families having problems with the old way.

 

[Edg]

I’ll leave just one final comment on this case.
My interest was piqued by the early assertion that the the case was unlikely to involve foul play and that it was simply a case of accidental drowning.
The subsequent public presentation by police of a case for believing this was a suicide is unfortunate.
It may well be the case, and looking at the limited information available ,that seems the most likely explanation.
For a definite conclusion a suicide note or other evidence is perhaps desirable

However the state of mind , potential precursors , drug or alcohol abuse, and vulnerability can all potentially combine to hide a case of murder or manslaughter.

There are no obstacles suspects or motives in this instance as far as I am aware so it’s not a concern.

But it’s important to remember a few core facts for future investigations.


In the absence of injury , witness evidence or other evidence it is not generally possible to determine if someone was pushed into the water , coerced under threat to jump in, or wether it was simply accident or suicide.
Falling from a boat or ship is perhaps the most obvious example. But even if the body is not lost at sea

Those with a background of recreational drug use or alcoholism are more at risk of accident or suicide but equally ingestion isn’t always conscious or consensual.

If at a later stage evidence of third party involvement were to be uncovered (I acknowledge in this instance that appears unlikely) , the the public release and publication of the personal information regarding the victim in a manner aimed at providing an explanation could potentially prejudice any prosecution.



There is at least one other common type of death that is regularly reported as suicide , but where often it is impossible to tell if foul play was involved.
At some stage in the future I Suspect we may hear an awful lot more about that in the media.

But yes from my perspective this case is closed , . Unless the forensic support says otherwise , I cannot see there’s any more that can be done.

 

[Edg]

I’ll leave just one final comment on this case.
My interest was piqued by the early assertion that the the case was unlikely to involve foul play and that it was simply a case of accidental drowning.
The subsequent public presentation by police of a case for believing this was a suicide is unfortunate.
It may well be the case, and looking at the limited information available ,that seems the most likely explanation.
For a definite conclusion a suicide note or other evidence is perhaps desirable

However the state of mind , potential precursors , drug or alcohol abuse, and vulnerability can all potentially combine to hide a case of murder or manslaughter.

There are no obstacles suspects or motives in this instance as far as I am aware so it’s not a concern.

But it’s important to remember a few core facts for future investigations.


In the absence of injury , witness evidence or other evidence it is not generally possible to determine if someone was pushed into the water , coerced under threat to jump in, or wether it was simply accident or suicide.
Falling from a boat or ship is perhaps the most obvious example. But even if the body is not lost at sea

Those with a background of recreational drug use or alcoholism are more at risk of accident or suicide but equally ingestion isn’t always conscious or consensual.

If at a later stage evidence of third party involvement were to be uncovered (I acknowledge in this instance that appears unlikely) , the the public release and publication of the personal information regarding the victim in a manner aimed at providing an explanation could potentially prejudice any prosecution.



There is at least one other common type of death that is regularly reported as suicide , but where often it is impossible to tell if foul play was involved.
At some stage in the future I Suspect we may hear an awful lot more about that in the media.

But yes from my perspective this case is closed , . Unless the forensic support says otherwise , I cannot see there’s any more that can be done.

 

[Distant Observer]

My expectation is that it will be an open verdict. With no witnesses of what actually happened for NB to be in the river a misadventure verdict is most unlikely. Possibly the court will find evidence of her state of mind and reach a suicide verdict or maybe death by accidental drowning but the evidence would have to be conclusive. A good friend of mine died at his home 20 years ago. My hunch was that he died of a coronary thrombosis as he had told me he had been having thrombi in his legs. He had some issues in his life as we all do but he wasn't the depressive type. An open verdict was reached.

 

[Destroyer]

JMO I’m not a pathologist but I cant see with drowning if you could tell between suicide and misadventure. So you’d err on misadventure for insurance and other purposes?
If was a clear overdose or ligature with suicide note left that would be different.

Is it possible there is a suicide note or a message of some sort & this was never disclosed the same as her mental health state & alcoholism problems which we now know about because the way the LE have approached this investigation throughout has been one of them distancing themselves from this being an abduction or any form of foul play ? The way they never sealed any of the key areas off suggests they always knew more than they let on.

 

[Furore]

Regarding this snippet from your MSM link:

Mr Faulding, CEO of Search Group International (SGI), told Express.co.uk: "This is a baffling case. The most baffling aspect is at the bottom of the bank there was only two feet of water on the day Nicola went missing.

He's supposed to be an expert diver (I'm not arguing that. He very well could be) but is baffled by only 2 feet of water in the area Nicola was found on the day Nicola went missing. I have learned from you all that a body can drift and not necessarily be found at the exact spot a person where a person went in.

So I guess my question to the diver baffled about where she was found is... how deep was the water between the day she went missing and the day she was found? I'm thinking she could have drifted about, then eventually ended up where she did. And that the water was higher when the body did drift to that point (obviously, unless she was placed there and I'm more apt to think she drifted when the water level was higher and 'driftable').

Question to y'all - Does anyone know how deep this water was between when she went missing and when she was found?

Nicola Bulley expert diver 'baffled' over detail of where body was found

Yesterday, Lancashire Police confirmed a body was found in the river in St Michael's near where Nicola Bulleywent missing on January 27 belonged to the mortgage adviser

www.mirror.co.uk

IMO you can drown in a bath tub, so our expert needs to revise some more. Hit the ice cold water face first, inhale a bit of water in a gasp, go into vocal cord spasm. IMO. That’s IF she didn’t jump into the middle or let the tides carry her.

 

[Furore]

I’m not comparing this to NB’s case but this doesn’t bode well for Lancashire police

Cop from Nicola Bulley force accused of misconduct after woman found dead

A COP from the force who carried out the search for Nicola Bulley is accused of gross misconduct in relation to the death of another young mum. Kiena Dawes, 23, was reported missing just hours befo…

www.the-sun.com

I don’t agree with the laws surrounding DV but KD also had significant MH history.

This is great. Never knew they could do noninvasive autopsy. Just total body CT Scans. Must be heart warming for families having problems with the old way.

IMO they can miss stuff though. Agree convenient especially during Covid but ultimately bumps live patient scans down the list which not practical in current era waiting lists for cancer especially

 

[Furore]

Think police were clear with messaging from start. Missing. Not suspicious. No third party. Our focus the river. PF doesn’t have all the info. Stop speculating on SM.

It unraveled because of the media deliberately interviewing non aligned experts for controversy.

They do this all the time.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Think police were clear with messaging from start. Missing. Not suspicious. No third party. Our focus the river. PF doesn’t have all the info. Stop speculating on SM.

It unraveled because of the media deliberately interviewing non aligned experts for controversy.

They do this all the time.

Or perhaps not. The police have drafted the expert assistance of the equivalent of the US FBI. The unnamed detective has solved similar cases (Julie James) and would only be requested if the circumstances need more clarity, answers, and is possibly more than it appears to be from all outward appearances. They want to get this right. I applaud this move and hope it helps to shed more light on the tragedy, regardless of the outcome. The end result remains, she is no longer with us. I wish her family some peace, now her body has been recovered.

Detective who worked on missing dog walker case drafted in to help solve Nicola Bulley disappearance

Ms Bulley, 45, vanished more than three weeks ago in St Michael’s on Wyre, in Lancashire

uk.sports.yahoo.com

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

I’m not comparing this to NB’s case but this doesn’t bode well for Lancashire police

Cop from Nicola Bulley force accused of misconduct after woman found dead

A COP from the force who carried out the search for Nicola Bulley is accused of gross misconduct in relation to the death of another young mum. Kiena Dawes, 23, was reported missing just hours befo…

www.the-sun.com

Thank you for posting this link, insight, and info. Priceless, and may actually lend more credence and reasoning as to why they decided to bring in the outside expert to assist. Leave no stone unturned. They don’t want to be embroiled in something years down the road - that involves exhuming the body and further investigation of their work regarding this case.

 

[Marie Bell]

Is it possible there is a suicide note or a message of some sort & this was never disclosed the same as her mental health state & alcoholism problems which we now know about because the way the LE have approached this investigation throughout has been one of them distancing themselves from this being an abduction or any form of foul play ? The way they never sealed any of the key areas off suggests they always knew more than they let on.

I'm taking into consideration, again, one of the early press conferences by Supt. Riley. She specifically said that the investigations so far were tending towards this having been an accident, caused possibly when NB somehow got in a muddle or mis-stepped whilst dealing with the dog and/or its harness. I don't believe that police would have gone so far as to state all this if they had any positive suspicion of it being suicide. As another member put it so well in the previous thread - the information they collect about a missing person initially is just information. It doesn't mean that the information, on its own, turns out to be relevant.
All my opinion.