UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[Marantz4250b]

If experts are treated in Court and by public as Dr Evans, then I will not be surprised if nobody volunteers.

JMO

I'm not sure what you mean here. I can't see that he's been mistreated or with any level of disrespect at all.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm guessing prosecution don't want to go down that route because it might show problems occurring at random when LL wasn't around. And I bet the defense bring this up with their own experts. JMO

It would be the defence asking things like that. As I aid above, I get the feeling that we aren't getting the full picture on the questions and responses from the defence.

MOO, obviously.

 

[LorriB]

It would be the defence asking things like that. As I aid above, I get the feeling that we aren't getting the full picture on the questions and responses from the defence.

MOO, obviously.

Prosecution only going to ask if it fits their narrative though.

But I agree, hard to really work out what's going on with such limited reporting.

 

[Marantz4250b]

We should have a WS meet-up at court!

It's also a real hike for me, from London. But I really want to go.

That would be kinda cool, to be honest. I did think about it ages ago when this all started. It would be very interesting to watch but it also may turn out to be very boring if you hit the wrong days, especially after a long travel.

I'll be honest, one of the other things which tended to put me off was the thought of "This is something of the utmost gravity of severity - is someone with no connection to anyone involved doing to right thing in going when others have a better justification for taking up a seat?". I'd be concerned as seeing it as some sort of weird spectator sport, but I do go back and forth on the issue.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I'm not sure what you mean here. I can't see that he's been mistreated or with any level of disrespect at all.

Precisely. If he’s criticised , it’s because he’s done or said or written something that appears worthy of criticism.

But it’s not like everyone is out to get those giving expert medical evidence . Dr Bohin hasn’t come in for the same criticisms because there aren’t acts to warrant such criticism. The defence has tried to suggest that dr bohin has “rubber stamped” medical reports, but that hasn’t gained any traction because there is nothing (so far) in her testimony or reports to give weight to such a suggestion.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
10m

On the incident on 3 June, Dr Bohin says she has 'never experienced' a neonatal baby crying for 30mins. She says it is an 'extraordinarily long' time and puts it down to an 'inflicted painful stimulus'

See, this is one of the totally weird things that just make me think "really, why tf wasn't something done at the time if this is so unusual?" Surely, if this sort of thing is so rare the NNU nurses never see it then you hold some sort of big investigation to find out what's going on?

Nothing seems straightforward with this case.

 

[Ruby12345]

If experts are treated in Court and by public as Dr Evans, then I will not be surprised if nobody volunteers.

JMO

I think he knows what to expect from the defence he's done this lots of times.

Being an expert witness is very well paid so they definitely will find someone.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm Teesside lol! Somehow Manchester manages to be around 2 hours from everywhere, sorely tempted to price up train tickets though...

I'm a bit further north on the coast by Newcastle.

I don't think train tickets will be too bad - I go to edinburgh a bit and 1st class is like 60 return, sometimes cheaper if you catch it right.

 

[Dotta]

“Sound like My kind of case”…. Sure, if you love reading about unrelenting misery and loss .

Deary me.

What does it exactly mean?
"Love reading about misery..."

 

[LorriB]

Is it me or does this just scream "confirmation bias"?

It absolutely screams confirmation bias to me. I feel like the facts are the facts. If there truly was evidence of air embolism why was it only discovered in light of the other cases and not in the original report.

There appears to be a lot of changing of original reports in light of the accusations against LL.

 

[Sweeper2000]

How does it suggest he has a preference for cases involving criminal behaviour? His kind of case is reviewing deaths and medical records to establish cause, natural or unnatural, as far as I know.

Any other reading of it is, without facts in support, unfounded and speculative.

MOO

One might think that would mean any case is his kind of case. But apparently he has a certain type. We can speculate on that the same as the jury would.

im still going with dr bohin tbh. She is sound as a pound imo.

think it kind of goes with my suggestion some threads ago that a second opinion from a dr relatively accomplished and not related to preceding criminal cases would have bolstered the prosecutions case.

along with proof of critical thinking in reviewing the evidence, along with a demonstrably non indicative way to having the cases reviewed by the NCA.

I think it would shire up the hole that comes with dr bohin stating there is no singular criteria diagnostic of air embolism.

 

[squish]

Yeah I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing he approached them, doesn't change my opinion but I can see the 'they approached me' and then the email showing he asked them has the potential to damage his credibility with the jury. Wonder what they make of it..

They may well have approached him, too. He also might not remember that email, and it might not have been an official approach. It may not have been a lie as such but it doesn't look good. At best it makes him look inaccurate, and at worst dishonest and overly invested in the case.

Although I trust his actual medical opinions, Dr Evans does himself no favours with the emotional way in which he expresses himself. He makes it far too easy to accuse him of bias, and for the defense to attack him as a person.

I hope the prosecution point out that the defense have not been able to attack Dr Bohin, and her conclusions are almost always the same as Dr Evans'.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Just out of curiosity. Is this the second example of something that doesn’t in Evidence fit the prosecution’s opening.

we originally had a “mild“ form of haemophilia and that’s now gone to ”moderate” and we also had LL doing something whilst the nurses back was turned with no alarm but that has changed almost entirely. That’s not looking good IMO. Quite significant misrepresentation IMO.

 

[squish]

That would be kinda cool, to be honest. I did think about it ages ago when this all started. It would be very interesting to watch but it also may turn out to be very boring if you hit the wrong days, especially after a long travel.

I'll be honest, one of the other things which tended to put me off was the thought of "This is something of the utmost gravity of severity - is someone with no connection to anyone involved doing to right thing in going when others have a better justification for taking up a seat?". I'd be concerned as seeing it as some sort of weird spectator sport, but I do go back and forth on the issue.

Nah, I think the general public are entitled to know what goes on in court. There is a public interest in justice. At the end of the day, if LL ends up being innocent, then in theory something like this can happen to any of us!

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don’t think there is anything in the med experts evidence that could explain exactly how allegedly that ll caused this event at 7.15.

the nurses testimony gives you a very narrow or non existent window of opportunity. She’s not near the baby at any point, nor is there any indication to her having done anything suspicious other than being present. You could have a army of medical experts saying this and that but if the witness says “I saw nothing unusual“ in other words then that speaks for itself IMO.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Nah, I think the general public are entitled to know what goes on in court. There is a public interest in justice. At the end of the day, if LL ends up being innocent, then in theory something like this can happen to any of us!

Absolutely, completely agreed! I'm just speaking from a personal point of view. I think it would maybe bother me that I was going to watch something of such gravity and seriousness when I'm not personally connected to any of the parties.

I totally agree that justice should always be open to the public (apart from where exceptional and specific circumstances exist) and that the public should be allowed to freely view it taking place. But - and it's a significant "but" - I do feel there are limits on what constitutes the "right" thing to do. Purely personal and everyone is different. I can't help trying to put my head in the same place as either the families of these babies are or where LL's family is. If it were me would I want randomers showing up at court.

These I think are difficult moral questions.

 

[Dotta]

They may well have approached him, too. He also might not remember that email, and it might not have been an official approach. It may not have been a lie as such but it doesn't look good. At best it makes him look inaccurate, and at worst dishonest and overly invested in the case.

Although I trust his actual medical opinions, Dr Evans does himself no favours with the emotional way in which he expresses himself. He makes it far too easy to accuse him of bias, and for the defense to attack him as a person.

I hope the prosecution point out that the defense have not been able to attack Dr Bohin, and her conclusions are almost always the same as Dr Evans'.

IMO how Dr Evans expresses himself is of no importance.
People react in different ways.

What matters are MEDICAL OPINIONS.

As for Defence "attacking him as a person"
Well, no comment really.
JMO

 

[DianaWW]

The reporting seems to be getting worse the longer the trial goes on. I’m not sure I even trust what I think anymore as I’m conscious that we’re only hearing a fraction of what’s going on. I really hope the reporting improves when it’s the defence’s turn.

I’d also love to attend court but it’s too far for me. I’d love to know the general feeling amongst the people watching every day. But I think it would break my heart to see the poor families. JMO.

 

[squish]

IMO how Dr Evans expresses himself is of no importance.
People react in different ways.

What matters are MEDICAL OPINIONS.

As for Defence "attacking him as a person"
Well, no comment really.
JMO

It shouldn't be important, after all he's a medical professional and not a public speaker. But the judge and jury are human and Myers obviously must think it will help sway them emotionally to be attacking Dr Evans like this.

It is pretty desperate though if the only thing your defense have is to attack the validity of the experts themselves, and not their findings.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Just out of curiosity. Is this the second example of something that doesn’t in Evidence fit the prosecution’s opening.

we originally had a “mild“ form of haemophilia and that’s now gone to ”moderate” and we also had LL doing something whilst the nurses back was turned with no alarm but that has changed almost entirely. That’s not looking good IMO. Quite significant misrepresentation IMO.

I’m wondering if this would quantify a reason for droppig These charges. I don’t see how or why The prosecution would continue with this one. I don’t know if the testimony has changed or why we are seeing these significant changes or if new evidence comes to light why the prosecution wouldn’t re consider their angle when it comes to it.