UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[Parker Knoll]

Exactly - The front door would of had a massive slam when I got in tonight if I had been Dr E - the jury heard the full exchange and that’s all that matters.

 

[Marantz4250b]

He wouldn't have the job doing these investigative reports if he hadn't examined other cases though.

Are you going to hire someone who never had any experience with other deceased babies?

It's the point he's making that the report on this baby was written " ....with knowledge of previous babies in this case.", though. That suggests that he might be falling into a self confirming bias. Not for one minute saying that he is but it's something worth of note, I think.

MOO, obvs.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Where does it say that it means he 'likes' cases with criminal involvement?

His expertise is in investigating causes of deaths in neonates. Not specifically in criminal causes.

His email was to the national crime agency!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

If I’ve read correctly; he suggested he has also worked for defence cases?
This equally could suggest that by working in
clinical negligence cases also supports the view to actually rule out any foul play aswell.
JMO

I don’t know. I find it very strange that he said :

“I understand that the Royal College (of Paediatrics and Child Health) has been involved but from my experience the police are far better at investigating this sort of problem.”

Like, what? Why would the police be better at investigating cases not involving foul play than this professional medical body? Coupled with the fact that he referred to it as “this sort of problem“, it gives the impression that he had some preconceived notion of foul play. JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

His email was to the national crime agency!

Well it would be - the police were involved at that point.

 

[katydid23]

I said there might be a link. Scientists sometimes have a reputation for wanting to proving their points. That could go either way, of course, but being very keen to do something rather than waiting to be asked might suggest that want to make a point on something.

All my own opinion, obvs.

I think most 'experts' that make their living by doing reports and investigations have to 'speak up' when wanting employment opportunities. ALL of the experts we are hearing from are paid to come and share their opinions. I am pretty sure the experts that defense brings forwards, if they did bring anyone, will have also put themselves into the ring. JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

I agree … let’s see that email trail when the defence get started.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I agree … let’s see that email trail when the defence get started.

I don’t have an issue with experts touting their wares (or skills). It’s their job and they have to make a crust like the rest of us.

What I have a (potential) issue with here is that dr Evans has previously given the court the impression in testimony that he knew absolutely nothing about this case before looking at the files ( I believe he described himself as a “blank piece of paper”).

But that’s clearly not the case . He had read about it in the press and had gathered enough information to prompt him to offer his services to the police.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Am I going mad here or did he not state on oath that he just had information at that point and absolutely no name ?

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Am I going mad here or did he not state on oath that he just had information at that point and absolutely no name ?

I agree he said he had no name , but it wasn’t as though he had no information,and some of the things he said don’t add up in my opinion in light of today’s evidence. The quote from 25 October 2022 evidence :

“Dr Evans said he was tasked with investigating a "clinical condition", not a "crime", when he became aware of the Countess of Chester Hospital case, when tasked by the National Crime Agency.

He said the scenarios added up to a "constellation of worries" on what went on between June 2015 and June 2016.

He adds that in past cases, he has been brought in by police and the conclusion was accidental, so the case was closed with no further police involvement.

He is asked about his 'state of mind' in his approach to the cases.

"My state of mind was very clear - let's find a diagnosis. Nothing to do with crime. Let's identify any specific collapse, and see if I can explain it.

"There were occasions where I couldn't explain it, and occasions where I found something deeply suspicious.

"There were incidents I found disturbing."

He was asked to investigate 33 cases in total, with two insulin cases later.

He said there were two babies were born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses.

He said: "The name Lucy Letby meant nothing to me. I didn't know the staff.

"I was the easiest physician and the most difficult. I was a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea and relied entirely on the evidence I could see from the clinical notes and applying my clinical experience and forming an opinion to the cause."

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

duplicate post

 

[Parker Knoll]

Ahh - awkward, but if he had found nothing that warranted further investigation then that surely would be his professional opinion on “ events “ at the CoCH
It could of worked both ways could it not ?
He was one of four and quite possibly 5 EW - he wasn’t alone in his observations but this is or could be damaging agreed.

 

[katydid23]

See, this is one of the totally weird things that just make me think "really, why tf wasn't something done at the time if this is so unusual?" Surely, if this sort of thing is so rare the NNU nurses never see it then you hold some sort of big investigation to find out what's going on?

Nothing seems straightforward with this case.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say why didn't they try to find out what's going on? I think they did try to figure it out.

It's an ongoing, changeable process. He did stop crying/screaming after they did whatever they did to try and comfort him. So what would they be investigating at that time?

 

[katydid23]

See, this is one of the totally weird things that just make me think "really, why tf wasn't something done at the time if this is so unusual?" Surely, if this sort of thing is so rare the NNU nurses never see it then you hold some sort of big investigation to find out what's going on?

Nothing seems straightforward with this case.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say why didn't they try to find out what's going on? I think they did try to figure it out.

It's an ongoing, changeable process. He did stop crying/screaming after they did whatever they did to try and comfort him. So what would they be investigating at that time?

I think it is only with them, looking back at all the other circumstances that followed weeks later, that they continued their investigation of his case.

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree he said he had no name , but it wasn’t as though he had no information,and some of the things he said don’t add up in my opinion in light of today’s evidence. The quote from 25 October 2022 evidence :

“Dr Evans said he was tasked with investigating a "clinical condition", not a "crime", when he became aware of the Countess of Chester Hospital case, when tasked by the National Crime Agency.

He said the scenarios added up to a "constellation of worries" on what went on between June 2015 and June 2016.

He adds that in past cases, he has been brought in by police and the conclusion was accidental, so the case was closed with no further police involvement.

He is asked about his 'state of mind' in his approach to the cases.

"My state of mind was very clear - let's find a diagnosis. Nothing to do with crime. Let's identify any specific collapse, and see if I can explain it.

"There were occasions where I couldn't explain it, and occasions where I found something deeply suspicious.

"There were incidents I found disturbing."

He was asked to investigate 33 cases in total, with two insulin cases later.

He said there were two babies were born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses.

He said: "The name Lucy Letby meant nothing to me. I didn't know the staff.

"I was the easiest physician and the most difficult. I was a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea and relied entirely on the evidence I could see from the clinical notes and applying my clinical experience and forming an opinion to the cause."

What I have a (potential) issue with here is that dr Evans has previously given the court the impression in testimony that he knew absolutely nothing about this case before looking at the files ( I believe he described himself as a “blank piece of paper”).

But that’s clearly not the case . He had read about it in the press and had gathered enough information to prompt him to offer his services to the police.

Until he was selected by the NCA he had no more information than the rest of the British public. It was reported in the national press that police were going to be investigating. Whoever the NCA had chosen would have known that information.

 

[katydid23]

It absolutely screams confirmation bias to me. I feel like the facts are the facts. If there truly was evidence of air embolism why was it only discovered in light of the other cases and not in the original report.

There appears to be a lot of changing of original reports in light of the accusations against LL.

People don't always get it right in their initial reports. Sometimes we overlook the correct conclusion because it does not seem the most probable. It takes awhile to sort things out. JMO

Is it really changing original reports if it is a matter of eventually coming to a different conclusion?

Look at the average murder investigation. Do detectives always pick the correct suspect right at the start? Usually they go through a few suspects before they clear them and land on the correct one. I think the same can happen when trying to find the correct cause of an unexplained death. JMO

 

[Becci]

Do all babies get a vitamin k shot as soon as their born?
I was looking at child e because he had gastrointestinal bleeding.
I couldn't see unless i missed it that he had a shot of vitamin k.
This is from google;

What happens if the newborn does not get the vitamin K injection?


Without enough vitamin K, your baby has a chance of bleeding into his or her intestines, and brain, which can lead to brain damage and even death. Infants who do not receive the vitamin K shot at birth can develop VKDB up to 6 months of age.
Just a thought of mine & sorry if it's already been discussed.

 

[Sundial]

I don’t know. I find it very strange that he said :

“I understand that the Royal College (of Paediatrics and Child Health) has been involved but from my experience the police are far better at investigating this sort of problem.”

Like, what? Why would the police be better at investigating cases not involving foul play than this professional medical body? Coupled with the fact that he referred to it as “this sort of problem“, it gives the impression that he had some preconceived notion of foul play. JMO

Of course, a fair point; but equally the royal colleges of paediatrics are a medical body and professionals not necessarily equipped to scrutinise this quite in the same way the police would. It is a legal matter that requires *legal* intervention and I do feel his view is actually relevant.

I think it was dr j who said something on the lines of; “we are medical professionals”..

Therefore they can present the information highlighting potential foul play based on medical information they provide; yet it is up to the police to explore and scrutinise in greater depth whether an offence has occurred or not based on the medical evidence they have been given.

This is one reason in particular why timely records and medical notes are a fundamental requirement and legal obligation; they must be upheld (to the best of one’s knowledge - although I realise that doesn’t always happen). And it’s the failure to do so or falsifying, failure to record or tampering with medical (legal) notes in any way that can have very serious consequences that only the legal profession are equipped to deal with. JMO

 

[Sundial]

Do all babies get a vitamin k shot as soon as their born?
I was looking at child e because he had gastrointestinal bleeding.
I couldn't see unless i missed it that he had a shot of vitamin k.
This is from google;

What happens if the newborn does not get the vitamin K injection?


Without enough vitamin K, your baby has a chance of bleeding into his or her intestines, and brain, which can lead to brain damage and even death. Infants who do not receive the vitamin K shot at birth can develop VKDB up to 6 months of age.
Just a thought of mine & sorry if it's already been discussed.

It is usually recommended yes (but can also be refused by parents I believe).

ETA;
link to further info information

Vitamin K and your new baby

Why your new baby needs vitamin K supplements to help their blood clot and how they're given

www.nhsinform.scot

 

[marynnu]

Do all babies get a vitamin k shot as soon as their born?
I was looking at child e because he had gastrointestinal bleeding.
I couldn't see unless i missed it that he had a shot of vitamin k.
This is from google;

What happens if the newborn does not get the vitamin K injection?


Without enough vitamin K, your baby has a chance of bleeding into his or her intestines, and brain, which can lead to brain damage and even death. Infants who do not receive the vitamin K shot at birth can develop VKDB up to 6 months of age.
Just a thought of mine & sorry if it's already been discussed.

I would say it's very unusual for parents to refuse Vit K for their child. I certainly never saw it. Parents of babies admitted to NNU are particularly anxious, obviously, and want you to do everything you can to ensure their child is OK. I also think it's likely that we would have heard if Child D had not received it.