Urggh. I don't like it that LL dressed those babies. That should never be taken away from a bereaved parent and it from what the Dad is saying, it sounds like he didn't know anything about it.The father adds: "I am sure it was Lucy Letby who wheeled the two boys to us. She said how sorry she was. "I'm pretty certain she dressed them up."
He said it was Lucy Letby's job to do up the memory box, which included an SD card containing memories of Child O and Child P.
Is this the first mention of photos/memories for the memory boxes being on an SD card? I'd always just assumed they were physical paper photographs, like the one LL had given the parents of Twin F, holding twin E's teddy.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…www.denbighshirefreepress.co.uk
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13
- Thread starter sleuth777
- Start date
- Status
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,364
- Reaction score
- 132,857
"Ms Taylor told the court she was 'surprised' at Child O's deterioration.
Ben Myers KC, defending, broke in as Philip Astbury began asking the nurse whether the baby’s fatal collapse had been expected, arguing that there were too many gaps in her knowledge for her to be able to offer an opinion. "
Lucy Letby colleague felt 'put out' by murder-accused nurse's decision
Ben Myers KC, defending, broke in as Philip Astbury began asking the nurse whether the baby’s fatal collapse had been expected, arguing that there were too many gaps in her knowledge for her to be able to offer an opinion. "
Lucy Letby colleague felt 'put out' by murder-accused nurse's decision
Myers is gunning for MT. She has taken some serious pressure in the witness box. I feel like she's weak for the prosecution. Mainly because in the police interviews she argued away some of the deteriorations as normal. Maybe to cover her own *advertiser censored*. When Myers questioned her, she said 'i was thinking of it from a nursing perspective back then'
This really wasn't good.
ColourPurple
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2015
- Messages
- 4,180
- Reaction score
- 12,642
Have they ever reported which doctor LL said "He's not leaving here alive is he" to? I'm wondering whether it could have been Dr NiceGuy?
Referring back to the last two babies allegedly harmed by Ms Letby, the prosecutor alleged Child P was murdered the day after his brother, Child O, died by Ms Letby in late June 2016.
Child P had an ‘acute desaturation’, was intubated and improved, and efforts were made to relocate him to a different hospital. But during that, he desaturated again and was given treatment which saw his circulation be restored, but he continued to deteriorate, it was said.
Fifteen minutes before he was due to be taken to the other hospital, his blood gases were taken and appeared satisfactory.
“The doctor who was supervising his treatment was ‘optimistic’ for his prospects when all of a sudden Ms Letby said something like ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’, which surprised him,” Mr Johnson said.
Prosecutors alleged she knew what she had done. Child P sadly collapsed again and all resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful. His cause of death was recorded as Sudden Unexpected Postnatal Collapse
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk
Referring back to the last two babies allegedly harmed by Ms Letby, the prosecutor alleged Child P was murdered the day after his brother, Child O, died by Ms Letby in late June 2016.
Child P had an ‘acute desaturation’, was intubated and improved, and efforts were made to relocate him to a different hospital. But during that, he desaturated again and was given treatment which saw his circulation be restored, but he continued to deteriorate, it was said.
Fifteen minutes before he was due to be taken to the other hospital, his blood gases were taken and appeared satisfactory.
“The doctor who was supervising his treatment was ‘optimistic’ for his prospects when all of a sudden Ms Letby said something like ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’, which surprised him,” Mr Johnson said.
Prosecutors alleged she knew what she had done. Child P sadly collapsed again and all resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful. His cause of death was recorded as Sudden Unexpected Postnatal Collapse
Nurse accused of murdering babies found with note saying: “I AM EVIL I DID THIS”
Lucy Letby, 32, denies all 22 offences
Dotta
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2021
- Messages
- 11,662
- Reaction score
- 71,392
WTH???Have they ever reported which doctor LL said "He's not leaving here alive is he" to? I'm wondering whether it could have been Dr NiceGuy?
Referring back to the last two babies allegedly harmed by Ms Letby, the prosecutor alleged Child P was murdered the day after his brother, Child O, died by Ms Letby in late June 2016.
Child P had an ‘acute desaturation’, was intubated and improved, and efforts were made to relocate him to a different hospital. But during that, he desaturated again and was given treatment which saw his circulation be restored, but he continued to deteriorate, it was said.
Fifteen minutes before he was due to be taken to the other hospital, his blood gases were taken and appeared satisfactory.
“The doctor who was supervising his treatment was ‘optimistic’ for his prospects when all of a sudden Ms Letby said something like ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’, which surprised him,” Mr Johnson said.
Prosecutors alleged she knew what she had done. Child P sadly collapsed again and all resuscitation attempts were unsuccessful. His cause of death was recorded as Sudden Unexpected Postnatal Collapse
Nurse accused of murdering babies found with note saying: “I AM EVIL I DID THIS”
Lucy Letby, 32, denies all 22 offences
It has been one of the creepiest things I heard during this trial.
And this is a NURSE talking about a PATIENT??
Again words fail me
(and it doesn't happen often).
JMO
Dotta
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2021
- Messages
- 11,662
- Reaction score
- 71,392
Regardless if guilty or innocent
What an obnoxious person!
I cringe reading the reports:
- "rubbish" , "glued to me"
- berating others for calling for help/worrying about a patient
- behaving like "an elephant in china shop" with grieving parents
- maniacally texting instead of taking care of patients
- robbing parents of private moments with dead children
- me, me, me, I, my
- texting cheerfully about salsa dancing, win betting when patients collapse
Who is this person???
JMO
What an obnoxious person!
I cringe reading the reports:
- "rubbish" , "glued to me"
- berating others for calling for help/worrying about a patient
- behaving like "an elephant in china shop" with grieving parents
- maniacally texting instead of taking care of patients
- robbing parents of private moments with dead children
- me, me, me, I, my
- texting cheerfully about salsa dancing, win betting when patients collapse
Who is this person???
JMO
Lincoln34
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2019
- Messages
- 237
- Reaction score
- 1,563
One thing I’m struck with in the cases of O and P, are the comments she made heard in evidence “of keeping the brothers together” and the dispute with her colleague over this.
Sure you might assume there was nothing unusual about this, but isn’t it odd that wanting to “keep them together” when another colleague feels the one is unwell; yet also that “keeping them together” they both then die (Coincidentally, perhaps).
What I also find interesting aswell, during resus (I can’t remember whether this was O or P) was the doctor who had allegedly shouted at her asking about how many adrenaline shots the baby had had. In evidence it was heard she had wrote this on a scrap of paper (nothing unusual about that- in the moment as we have heard in the past already here), but she couldn’t recall whether it was three or four and the chaos the father has also reported.
In and of itself, I can imagine this to be an extremely stressful situation; naturally.
But when you’ve had other nurses state that someone usually scribes on a paper towel, scrap notes or anything to hand “what” medication is given during “that” moment, I was taken aback she didn’t know how many adrenaline shots were given/can’t remember.
JMO
Sure you might assume there was nothing unusual about this, but isn’t it odd that wanting to “keep them together” when another colleague feels the one is unwell; yet also that “keeping them together” they both then die (Coincidentally, perhaps).
What I also find interesting aswell, during resus (I can’t remember whether this was O or P) was the doctor who had allegedly shouted at her asking about how many adrenaline shots the baby had had. In evidence it was heard she had wrote this on a scrap of paper (nothing unusual about that- in the moment as we have heard in the past already here), but she couldn’t recall whether it was three or four and the chaos the father has also reported.
In and of itself, I can imagine this to be an extremely stressful situation; naturally.
But when you’ve had other nurses state that someone usually scribes on a paper towel, scrap notes or anything to hand “what” medication is given during “that” moment, I was taken aback she didn’t know how many adrenaline shots were given/can’t remember.
JMO
This reminds me of a previous exchange with the staff lead where she was explicitly told no by her superior and complaining to a colleague about wanting to be in room 1.
There’s also the (seemingly) defiant behaviour keep going into the family room where she was told not to by her superior on more than one occasion.
To me they don’t strike me as minor disputes or LL being a bit dissatisfied; but being quite deliberately dismissive of others within the team in providing care. A bit like “I know better” attitude, the undermining as another colleague has already testified imo.
I think back to the police reports thus far where she said something along the lines of “perhaps I was able to spot something the other nurse couldn’t”, yet at one point she was asking another colleague “how” they had worked out what medication to give during resus!
There’s also the (almost amusing) implication that a nursery nurse of over 10 odd years (if not more, I can’t recall how long she worked there); is incapable of her role- or something to that affect.
Just a bizarre case all round really. All my own opinions.
Gosh, this just breaks my heart. Sadly it's not the first time we've heard parents begging to be transferred out after a sudden death.
To me, it's these bits of anecdotal evidence that are the strongest. Medical matters aside, instinct when it comes in so many different forms and especially from parents, can not be ignored.
I applaud the triplet mum for slamming her foot down and saying ENOUGH!
I'll bet that her reaction and exposure of the horrendous goings on at CoC to another Trust was one of the major reasons all this baby killing came to a swift end. Triplet mama, nothing will bring your babies back but I bet you are the unsung hero of this investigation, who saved many future babies from a similar fate.
I agree, it's strange, it should have been the main thing that she remembered. That's what she's trained to do. To not be remembering the most important information strongly suggests she was distracted from the task in hand. It wasn't her priority, which is odd.
marynnu
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2023
- Messages
- 1,377
- Reaction score
- 9,746
All the following expresses my views only.
Apologies for backtracking a bit, but regarding the babies who were heard to be "screaming', when it was suggested for one that it might have been just hunger. Something has been niggling at the back of my mind which has taken a while to reveal itself - bear in mind I retired in 2016 (spooky!)!! I know it's a completely different scenario, but infants withdrawing from addictive drugs can produce a cry which is horrendous to hear.
So IMO the cry of a baby in pain & distress is quite distinct from a "normal" cry.
Apologies for backtracking a bit, but regarding the babies who were heard to be "screaming', when it was suggested for one that it might have been just hunger. Something has been niggling at the back of my mind which has taken a while to reveal itself - bear in mind I retired in 2016 (spooky!)!! I know it's a completely different scenario, but infants withdrawing from addictive drugs can produce a cry which is horrendous to hear.
So IMO the cry of a baby in pain & distress is quite distinct from a "normal" cry.
I wouldn't know about the drugs withdrawal but I can't recall my preemie crying for hunger. It takes such a long time to get to the point when they even wake up for feeds, nevermind scream for them. And of course, we keep talking about if one is heard screaming and another isn't, then it can't be deliberate harm.
There are so many things to consider when taking a view on this.
-Size and age of baby
-Distance from the cot
-,Health condition
-Type of cot
But the thing that puts all these screams into context is where LL was at the time, I suppose.
Tortoise
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2015
- Messages
- 26,364
- Reaction score
- 132,857
I have a different view on this. I think it's an asset to the prosecution.
When MT was interviewed by police about twin E she said she believed that sometimes babies collapsed with no explanation. Myers questioned her about this during cross-examination about twins A and B, which was (IMO) trickery, right at start of trial, because as she explained, this was how she as a nurse, not a doctor, had rationalised to herself what was happening, and it was after many sudden unexpected collapses and four unexpected deaths. It shows conditioning IMO, it's a real insight into how it became so that over that year no one would even question that this could be suspicious because they had absolute trust in each other. Such an environment operates on trust, they know what training and qualifications they each have and harm wouldn't even be on a nurse's radar, IMO. She explained to police they, as a unit, were all shocked by the deaths but that it still was a common occurrence. That was her speaking her truth, as a nurse, not a paediatrician, before knowing that anyone would be arrested let alone charged with murder and attempted murder.
Dr Harkness said to police that sudden deterioration was relatively common, and that was brought up in his cross-examination for baby G. He explained to jurors that it was relatively common for his time (as a junior doctor) in Chester, but he no longer holds that view.
They are only explaining how they had managed at the time, one could say the lies they told to themselves, conditioning, to justify what they were seeing happening. Very few people question the systems they trust in. IMO
I don't think one can go wrong with truth. I would say it is explainable in the context of the period in question and will have no bearing on what senior medics didn't believe at the time should be happening, and on experts saying it doesn't happen at all in babies showing no signs of gradual decline, showing self-recovery between collapses, and without medical diagnoses.
JMO
You're right, no one can go wrong with the truth and the time in question is of significance too.
For example I am assuming these conversations occured before LL was arrested. (Though she was put on admin at the time)
It does show in some ways, that the interviews were carried out objectively because it sounds like everyone was under investigation.
I don't think LL being the suspect was at the fore of MT's mind at the time of the interview.
She already stated that she remembered LL's presence in the nursery at the time of one incident and BM asked why she never raised it at the time and she said she wasn't asked if LL was there so didn't raise it as a point.
Can you imagine how MT and the others must feel now with hindsight? MT is stepping up to the plate now though, vigorously pursuing justice for those babies. Her descriptions of LL's behaviour are the most damning IMO, along with Sophie E and nurse Hudson.
marynnu
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2023
- Messages
- 1,377
- Reaction score
- 9,746
If
If you mean the doses of adrenaline, 3 or 4, I'm not sure I'd remember off the top of my head. That's why things are jotted down.
If you mean the doses of adrenaline, 3 or 4, I'm not sure I'd remember off the top of my head. That's why things are jotted down.
Wasn't she meant to be the nurse doing the jotting down?
Dotta
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2021
- Messages
- 11,662
- Reaction score
- 71,392
You know,
With sooo many trainings I have had at my workplace (school) I still remember the one about mental problems of youths, especially self harming.
Some cut themselves to find distraction from the mental pain.
And I wonder -
what if somebody hurts others, not oneself, to find relief from this tumult in one's mind?
To distract oneself, to be able to think about dancing, joy again?
To get rid of terrible thoughts?
Can somebody hurt oneself "by proxy"?
JMO
With sooo many trainings I have had at my workplace (school) I still remember the one about mental problems of youths, especially self harming.
Some cut themselves to find distraction from the mental pain.
And I wonder -
what if somebody hurts others, not oneself, to find relief from this tumult in one's mind?
To distract oneself, to be able to think about dancing, joy again?
To get rid of terrible thoughts?
Can somebody hurt oneself "by proxy"?
JMO
Do you know, I have had the same thought. Maybe it could be a new thing 'letby by proxy'
- Status