UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

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We're now moving to interview summaries for Child K - a baby girl Ms Letby allegedly attempted to murder on 17 February 2016. It is claimed a doctor, Ravi Jayaram, walked in on Ms Letby as she attempted to kill her.
11:32 AM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby told detectives that she had 'very little memory' of Child K, other than the fact she was a 25week prem baby
11:36 AM · Apr 25, 2023
 
Sweeper2000 said:
A few people have mentioned that they question how intelligent the defendant is. I’m still finding that difficult to gauge but I haven’t seen anything to suggest anything way above average. Seemingly not smart enough to cotton on to the suspicion about her.
Click to expand...
which evidence seemingly points to her not cottoning onto suspicion about her?

what about changes in alleged methods of attack?

what about significant gaps in the timeline of alleged attacks at points when consultants asked for external investigations?

to name just part of the evidence
 

In his evidence Dr Jayaram reported that when he arrived on the unit Child I's ET tube had slipped and her oxygen saturations were in 80s. Ms Letby was, according to the medic, stood near to the baby's ventilator
11:40 AM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby denied dislodging the baby's ET tube and said if she had noticed the saturation levels she would have summoned help
11:41 AM · Apr 25, 2023
 
DianaWW said:
I agree. I think she seems very average in every way. It's why this is all so hard to believe I guess. JMO.
Click to expand...
Even the oddness? I think she’s a little more than average odd lol. I agree btw proper average in so many ways. so Tame though, I can see her being the kind to hoard teddy bears or those Beenie bear things. I couldn’t think of a more average thing for her generation and age than that picture on her wall saying “shine bright like a diamond“. Rihanna lyric. I’m really not at all seeing anything way above average smarts from her. Not socially either. She’s social but not socially smart for instance I haven’t seen anything from her that shows she has an insight to the human mind that allows her to dictate where an interaction is going, otherwise known as “witchy” and that’s coming from someone who is known to be witchy as merlin himself. I don’t think she’s cunning at all, if she’s guilty she’s plain opportunistic. One of the ways the prosecution have been able to place her near the scene is her writing in the notes about things administered, if she was cunning and guilty she simply wouldn’t have put herself at the scene Like that. Especially unnecessarily when attending to others babies. That’s incriminating if guilty, not cunning. im not sure if people are making mountains out of molehills in regards to very isolated examples of debatably immoral behaviour.
 
I agree that she comes across as very average. Quite basic in fact.

But if guilty, then I would say this is the image she wants to give off, and that's how she wants people to see her.

The discrepancies in her notes in some of the cases do point to a cunning nature and trying to cover her back, but I still wouldn't say she's super intelligent. And I also think the famous notes appear to show that she may not be as normal as she's wanting to portray, but as it's been pointed out, we're not totally sure when they were written so that could play a part. JMO.
 
Tortoise said:
which evidence seemingly points to her not cottoning onto suspicion about her?

what about changes in alleged methods of attack?

what about significant gaps in the timeline of alleged attacks at points when consultants asked for external investigations?

to name just part of the evidence
Click to expand...
Dr j and baby k. If she was guilty that interaction would have been enough to raise her own alarm bells. he walks in “what are you doing” that’s very blunt and points in one direction.

then the nurse who asked her how she could see that the child was pale. from the POV of a murderer she didn’t need to point out what was wrong with the babs. if she was guilty she incriminated herself there.

it’s also only towards the end of the charges that she shows awareness of how the deaths reflect on her, I think if she was guilty she would have tried to approach someone to feign innocence before that by a long way. As in expressed concern to a manager as an attempt to show she was a dutiful and caring nurse.

there’s no evidence to suggest she scanned for warning signs at all.

what about changes in alleged methods? It’s certainly not cunning to leave physical wounds when the AE seemed to be undetectable at first glance. It’s also particularly incriminating to get back off holiday and start smashing your way through the cribs. Not cunning at all.

im not aware of the gaps in alleged attacks after requests for external investigations?
 
Information about the handover sheets from the latest podcast:



The jury was told that two supermarket bags-for-life were also retrieved from under Lucy Letby’s bed. The first one had Ibiza emblazoned on it. You may remember that Lucy Letby went on holiday there in June 2016. She returned on the 22nd of June and it’s the prosecution’s case that over the next three days she attacked and murdered two of the three triplets and attempted to murder another baby.

Jurors were shown a photo of the Ibiza bag and its contents. Inside were four handover sheets relating to her shifts on these dates and another from a shift on June 28th. Some of these handover sheets were shown to the jury.

The typed documents which are given to nurses when they first come on duty include brief details about the clinical condition of each baby on the unit at the time, and which member of staff is looking after them. On the back of these sheets Lucy Letby had handwritten notes about the treatments she’d given to the babies she was responsible for.

Other items in the bag included her work name-badge which had a yellow butterfly on it.

Another 31 handover sheets were also found inside a Morrisons’ bag in the room. This is the bag that contained the blood test result and the paper towel with resuscitation notes on it, that related to baby M.

In fact the jury were told that in total 257 shift handover sheets were recovered from Lucy Letby’s home, and that of her parents, by police. Of those, 21 related to 13 of the alleged victims in the case. Four of the babies, babies A, C, D and K did not feature in any of the handover sheets recovered. And you might remember that jurors have heard from other nurses previously in the trial who’ve given evidence, that these handover sheets are confidential and shouldn’t be taken home by staff.

Mr Myers though pointed out that a great majority of the sheets, some 236, were irrelevant to the case because they refer to shifts and to babies not involved in this trial.

The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested
 
Sweeper2000 said:
A few people have mentioned that they question how intelligent the defendant is. I’m still finding that difficult to gauge but I haven’t seen anything to suggest anything way above average. Seemingly not smart enough to cotton on to the suspicion about her.
Click to expand...
She's clearly reasonably intelligent as she's relatively high banded for someone who was 25 at the time and was looking to become band 6 so has progressed fairly rapidly. She also seems to be able to handle herself pretty well in police interviews which tends to make me think that she's not quite the shy, clumsy person she seems to be being painted as.

Intelligence isn't the same as social awareness and having an ability to appreciate others actions and how you're perceived, though. Some remarkably intelligent people seem to have very few social skills or "common sense" when dealing with everyday occurrences.
 

The Crown say that Ms Letby gave Child L an unauthorised dose of insulin. In her interview Ms Letby is asked where insulin is kept on the unit and what the process for administering it to a patient is - she told officers it was kept in a fridge and it would have to be prescribed
12:14 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby explained that the insulin was in a locked fridge in the equipment room - the keys for which are passed around among neonatal nursing staff as and when they are needed
12:15 PM · Apr 25, 2023
 
DianaWW said:
I agree that she comes across as very average. Quite basic in fact.

But if guilty, then I would say this is the image she wants to give off, and that's how she wants people to see her.

The discrepancies in her notes in some of the cases do point to a cunning nature and trying to cover her back, but I still wouldn't say she's super intelligent. And I also think the famous notes appear to show that she may not be as normal as she's wanting to portray, but as it's been pointed out, we're not totally sure when they were written so that could play a part. JMO.
Click to expand...

The reason I have speculated as to whether LL may have been using / misusing / addicted to some form of substance is because *if* she has done these things, to me, she just seems 'all over the place' as opposed to a cunning sociopathic sneaky calculated murderer. Or maybe she was having some kind of mental health issues. She's so middle of the road dull and average IMO it's hard to see how all this has happened JMO MOO

I believe the notes were her pouring her heart out, her doubts and fears and teasing out all angles of what other people think of her and what she's afraid of being said about her and I imagine they were written during long phone calls to other people, maybe for example even the Samaritans or over the phone counselling sessions or such like or even a priest or vicar. What do we know about her phone logs during this period of time? This type of processing is common to many techniques and I can't see how it indicates guilt in any way whatsoever. Obviously not trying to argue for her innocence... in this I trust the judge and jury. JMO.
 

Detectives asked Ms Letby if she attempted to murder Child L by injecting him with insulin, she said 'no'. Asked if he could have been injected by mistake, she said 'I don’t really see how' and said it was 'unlikely' such a mistake could be made
12:26 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Police put the expert evidence of Dr Dewi Evans to Ms Letby, that insulin had been administered - she said 'that wasn't done by me'
12:27 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby was asked if she had 'any explanation whatsoever' for how insulin ended up in his circulation. She said 'no, not unless it was already in one of the bags he was already receiving'. Asked if she added insulin to a bag, she said no
12:28 PM · Apr 25, 2023

We're now moving onto interview summaries for Child M - Child L's twin brother - who the Crown say Ms Letby attempted to kill on the same day
12:29 PM · Apr 25, 2023

The court has previously heard that Child M suffered an unexpected life-threatening collapse at around 16:00 hrs on 9 April 2016. His heart rate and breathing dropped dramatically and he required full resuscitation by medical staff.
12:30 PM · Apr 25, 2023
 
I saw the link below shared on here on one of the earlier threads. Today, someone shared it on another popular site. I think the picture may end up becoming an iconic image.

www.herefordtimes.com

Lucy LETBY

LETBY Lucy Happy 21st Birthday. Lots of love from Thomas and Matthew. xx
www.herefordtimes.com www.herefordtimes.com
 

Ms Letby told detectives she did not know why Child M desaturated. The only thing she could recall was that it was a 'busy shift' as it was 'not very often we had that many babies in nursery one'
12:37 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Asked if she had caused the infants collapse, she said 'I didn’t cause that and I don’t know who would have'. She denied administering air in a bid to kill Child M
12:38 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby was asked about a paper towel found at her home address when it was searched in 2018. The towel was used in 2016 as a make do drugs chart for Child M during his resuscitation - police asked Ms Letby why this was in her possession and why was it in her home
12:43 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Ms Letby said it was an 'error' on her part that it had been taken home. Asked why it had not been destroyed, she said it must have been put to one side and forgotten about. She denied keeping it to remind her of 'when she attacked' Child M
12:44 PM · Apr 25, 2023

Among the items seized by police was also Ms Letby's diary, on 8 April 2016 is written: "LD [long day] twins". The following day is written: "LD twins resus" Ms Letby was asked why she had logged this - she said it was because it was a 'significant event'
12:47 PM · Apr 25, 2023
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Dr j and baby k. If she was guilty that interaction would have been enough to raise her own alarm bells. he walks in “what are you doing” that’s very blunt and points in one direction.

then the nurse who asked her how she could see that the child was pale. from the POV of a murderer she didn’t need to point out what was wrong with the babs. if she was guilty she incriminated herself there.

it’s also only towards the end of the charges that she shows awareness of how the deaths reflect on her, I think if she was guilty she would have tried to approach someone to feign innocence before that by a long way. As in expressed concern to a manager as an attempt to show she was a dutiful and caring nurse.

there’s no evidence to suggest she scanned for warning signs at all.

what about changes in alleged methods? It’s certainly not cunning to leave physical wounds when the AE seemed to be undetectable at first glance. It’s also particularly incriminating to get back off holiday and start smashing your way through the cribs. Not cunning at all.

im not aware of the gaps in alleged attacks after requests for external investigations?
Click to expand...
Those weren't Dr J's words that you''ve got in quotes. He testified he asked what was going on and that LL replied 'she's just started desaturating now'. He didn't point at her.

The nurse didn't testify that she asked LL how she could see the baby in the dark. You're right that she didn't need to point it out, but she may have wanted to avoid it looking as if she had murdered the baby without any alarms going off, if the nurse discovered her dead after LL left the room.

As regards scanning, I've given six examples of this in reply to you before, in post #762 thread #15. UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

changes in alleged methods would break the chain of similar collapses and deaths being noticed.

gaps in alleged attacks -

After Jun 2015 gap of two months until after the investigation and debrief about baby A.

August to October 2015 - alleged murders/attacks of babies E&F, G, H and I.

23rd Oct 2015

baby I's death

An email was sent to staff raising concerns about an increase in mortality rates on the unit.

Around this time in October the consultants’ concerns about LL were escalated to Alison Kelly the director of nursing and her response was ‘it’s unlikely, we’ll see.’

26th Nov 2015

alleged attempted murder of baby J

After the shift a colleague messages LL saying “Tony Chambers and some woman turned up earlier”. LL says she hopes he got stuck in and helped.

Before Feb 2016 - Dr Brearey invited an independent neonatologist from Liverpool Women’s, Dr Nim Subhedar, to come in and analyse the unit and the increased death rate.

Night-shift 16th/17th Feb 2016 – LL messages a colleague that the unit is a hive of activity in preparation for a visit from the ‘big bods’. Alleged attempted murder of baby K, alarm not sounding when baby desaturated, after designated nurse left to go to see the mother.

February date unknown - Dr Subhedar’s review didn’t identify a reason but did flag LL as a common factor during all the collapses and deaths. Dr Brearey sent the report to Alison Kelly and also the head of Safety and Equality, the medical director, and the manager of the NNU, Eirian Powell. Dr Brearey demanded an urgent meeting to discuss the concerns but his request was ignored for three months and consultants faced pressure not to make a fuss.

9th April 2016 – alleged attempted murder twins L and M with alleged methods that would allow her not to be seen near those babies.

29th May 2016 - LL checked the Facebook of the mum of baby I.

3rd Jun 2016 – alleged attempted murder Child N
 
notsure said:

Among the items seized by police was also Ms Letby's diary, on 8 April 2016 is written: "LD [long day] twins". The following day is written: "LD twins resus" Ms Letby was asked why she had logged this - she said it was because it was a 'significant event'
12:47 PM · Apr 25, 2023
Click to expand...
So is she admitting here that she made this note in diary at the time of event rather than as has been mulled over here to make a timeline of events after she was moved to clerical duties.
 
notsure said:
Among the items seized by police was also Ms Letby's diary, on 8 April 2016 is written: "LD [long day] twins". The following day is written: "LD twins resus" Ms Letby was asked why she had logged this - she said it was because it was a 'significant event'
12:47 PM · Apr 25, 2023
Click to expand...
RSBM

Surely only the resus on the 9th was a signficant event not merely just having twins to look after on the 8th. I wonder, if guilty whether she actually wrote the note for the 9th in advance, planning to make sure both twins needed resus that day,

IMO if guilty
 
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