UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[Dotta]

That note would have been written after she became aware of a police investigation, so at least 2017? Why would she leave it in her 2016 diary

I have not the slightest idea

But it was reported that it was found apart from others - in her diary.

Was it a final note?

IDK

JMO

 

[Jazmania]

They can only call witnesses, though, if they actually have witnesses to counter the prosecution's arguments. I can't see what calling the original coroners and suchlike will achieve as they are just going to say exactly what they said in their original reports which is what the prosecution has already provided.

I'm tending to agree that they won't be calling many witnesses of their own, if any at all. Surely their opportunity to counter the prosecution's witnesses was when they were on the stand; they can say something along the lines of "....well, Dr Bloggs, we have a witness who will say that your opinion/conclusion on X, Y or Z is incorrect because of such and such reasons.....". They haven't ever done that, though, as far as I'm aware.

Also, I can't really see what character witnesses would achieve, either. The character of the defendant is largely irrelevant either way. The jury is supposed to decide on the evidence not on whether defendant is a "thoroughly decent and solid chap" towards their mates, if you see what I mean?

The defence has cross examined the witnesses and used that space to put forward their own version of what happened though, even if they haven't explicitly said ... We have an expert who will back this up. So with some baby's they have pointed out there could have been an infection, with others they pointed to gaps in care. I don't think they will have witnessed like Dr Evans who will look at the whole case, but I expect they might have experts on NEC who might say that can't be ruled out for babies x y z. If they can't find anyone to even say that then that is very telling.

I think they will surely have character witnesses. Just look at this forum - the main argument I'm reading that people are putting forward on behalf of Letby is that surely someone who gives off the appearance of being nice and normal could not have done this. The defence will want to distract the jury from the medical evidence and make them doubt that such an ordinary seeming person could do such a thing.

 

[TheCraig]

That note would have been written after she became aware of a police investigation, so at least 2017? Why would she leave it in her 2016 diary

Maybe because the note relates to alleged incidents from 2016 ‍

 

[Marantz4250b]

That note would have been written after she became aware of a police investigation, so at least 2017? Why would she leave it in her 2016 diary

She was creating a timeline of events and making notes on the relevant dates in an old diary?

She wrote the post-it note at the same time and left it in that diary?

Doesn't seem to contentious to me.

 

[Cluedoneit]

I think the frustrating vagueness regarding Letby’s personality outside of the limited evidence we have of her behaviour regarding her alleged crime is due to the English legal system. In order to not prejudice the jury we tend to know very little of defendants lives but can know and ask quite intrusive things about their alleged victims and witnesses .
IMO it’s what we are not hearing about Letby that is most interesting at the moment, but that could be rectified by the defence next week, especially if character witnesses will be called.
How likely would it be that you’re losing Babies regularly, completely devastated but never once reach out to your best friend to talk about it for example? I know we aren’t getting all of her messages, but as the messages we have seen were agreed with defence and prosecution, if any showed her in a very human light, the defence would have demanded (correctly) that it be included in the evidence pack for each baby. Maybe the defence has several messages to show where she talks about her feelings that we have yet to see and will show her in a much more different manner.
We have messages from her parents, her recent colleagues, but zero actual friends. Even the notes mention the babies, her parents and half brothers, cats and colleagues, but not once any friends. She lived in staff accommodation until moving out on her own, so didn’t share a house/ flat with university friends or friends from work- very different from the social butterfly pictured by the press or social media.

Its highly likely the police found other notes not relevant to the alleged crimes in her parents home or her house, as writing notes in that way is likely a habit developed as a teenager imo and not yet matured out of.
Obviously, none of this has anything to do with her guilt or innocence in my opinion but is interesting regarding her state of mind In answering the question, did she snap due to pressure or was this her regular way of thinking?

 

[katydid23]

I suspect they will move straight onto closing arguments when the prosecution rests. JMO

They won't even put on a defense case? Is that normal? I'd think they'd have ex patients who received 'suboptimal' care any COC, or ex staff who will say it was run poorly, or something like that.

You may be right because I don't follow many UK trials. I did follow the strange couple and their teen son who were accused of putting their young son in the creek, who had died. But even they seemed to have had a few defense witnesses, IIRC.

 

[Sweeper2000]

if anyone has listened to the podcast I am wondering if they heard the sameas me in regards to these notes. I think they said they fond hundreds of these notes with the ramblings on? Not sure if i confused those with the handover notes.

 

[mummyshark]

"The detective asked: “Why would going into nursery one help?”

Letby replied: “Because I would see a different baby in there, and see a different scenario to the scenario I had at the time when he died.” [..]

“Because I think when you are going to the same incubator space and there is a different baby there you know you let the one you lost go. Until you go into that space, you see that baby until another baby goes in there.”

Lucy Letby ‘upset and frustrated’ minutes before baby collapsed


Baby A died on Mon 8th June in room 1
Baby B collapsed just after midnight on night-shift of Tue 9th/Wed 10th June in room 1
Baby C died on night-shift of Sat 13th/Sun 14th June in room 1

She had already gone back into room 1 again the night after baby A's death. It's not a very convincing explanation is it.

My eldest was born at 28 weeks. She was born in a level 1 hospital and had to be transferred out to a level 3 hospital. She went back to the same level 1 hospital after 2 weeks and was put in the same cot space. That didn't make the trauma any easier. 2 1/2 years later, my 2nd child was born at 33 weeks. She was in the same cot space. She was a much healthier baby. That didn't make it any easier. I know they were my babies, and I had a greater emotional connection, and certainly trauma associated with it. But trauma is what Letby is alluding to. I just don't understand how, if you were so affected/traumatised by one baby being in a cot space, that another baby could/would make it better. In a strange way, it shows emotional detachment. It didn't make it any better/different for me because I was emotionally attached to my children. She was emotionally detached, but if she were then why was was she affected?

 

[Parker Knoll]

if anyone has listened to the podcast I am wondering if they heard the sameas me in regards to these notes. I think they said they fond hundreds of these notes with the ramblings on? Not sure if i confused those with the handover notes.

From recollection it was an A4 sheet of paper tucked inside the diary with hundreds of incoherent notes, thoughts and phrases written on on it.

 

[Sweeper2000]

From recollection it was an A4 sheet of paper tucked inside the diary with hundreds of incoherent notes, thoughts and phrases written on on it.

spot on. is there hundreds of notes on it ? Be surprised if there was think That’s why I must have missed it.

 

[marynnu]

My eldest was born at 28 weeks. She was born in a level 1 hospital and had to be transferred out to a level 3 hospital. She went back to the same level 1 hospital after 2 weeks and was put in the same cot space. That didn't make the trauma any easier. 2 1/2 years later, my 2nd child was born at 33 weeks. She was in the same cot space. She was a much healthier baby. That didn't make it any easier. I know they were my babies, and I had a greater emotional connection, and certainly trauma associated with it. But trauma is what Letby is alluding to. I just don't understand how, if you were so affected/traumatised by one baby being in a cot space, that another baby could/would make it better. In a strange way, it shows emotional detachment. It didn't make it any better/different for me because I was emotionally attached to my children. She was emotionally detached, but if she were then why was was she affected?

That's a really useful insight, thank you. I trust all is going well for you & your little ones.
I completely hear what you are saying. As an ex- neonatal nurse I obviously met hundreds of parents under a lot of stress, but I was aware I could never really know how it felt for them. I do not understand LL's apparent level of emotional involvement. The expression of loss & needing to see another baby in the cot space I find especially odd. To be frank, you do of course feel sad, but then you move on to care for the next patient and their family, who need your full attention. That's your job.

 

[marynnu]

They won't even put on a defense case? Is that normal? I'd think they'd have ex patients who received 'suboptimal' care any COC, or ex staff who will say it was run poorly, or something like that.

You may be right because I don't follow many UK trials. I did follow the strange couple and their teen son who were accused of putting their young son in the creek, who had died. But even they seemed to have had a few defense witnesses, IIRC.

There's no point having "witnesses" to poor care etc. etc. as it is completely irrelevant to the case. IMO.

 

[Parker Knoll]

It’s one A4 sheet crammed with handwritten notes.
So think “ post it note “ and times that by 100 !

I would be utterly staggered if no defence experts - it would be a slam dunk otherwise IMHO.

 

[ColourPurple]

That's a really useful insight, thank you. I trust all is going well for you & your little ones.
I completely hear what you are saying. As an ex- neonatal nurse I obviously met hundreds of parents under a lot of stress, but I was aware I could never really know how it felt for them. I do not understand LL's apparent level of emotional involvement. The expression of loss & needing to see another baby in the cot space I find especially odd. To be frank, you do of course feel sad, but then you move on to care for the next patient and their family, who need your full attention. That's your job.

What did you make of her saying of Baby A:

"Forget it, I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him, and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself

Not the fact that she's accused of murdering Baby C minutes after that conversation ended, but the fact that she refers to "knowing" baby A. I think Melanie "Mel" Taylor had looked after Baby A on the day shift .LL had been there from 7.30pm, he deteriorated around 8.20pm and died at 8.58pm. Is it usual to refer to "knowing" a baby in those circumstances? ETA- as opposed to saying something like "looked after him"

source: podcast ‎The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested on Apple Podcasts

 

[katydid23]

So the 3rd bedroom was decked out like a nursery...hmm...

But she may have bought the house from someone who used that room as their babies room, and hadn't redecorated yet.

 

[WaxLyrical]

But she may have bought the house from someone who used that room as their babies room, and hadn't redecorated yet.

Agree. The photographs of her house from the estate agents are in the public domain, from both when she bought the house and when she sold it. I saw it on a Reddit post this morning. One of the bedrooms was a baby’s room.

 

[bbsaz]

She wasnt in it long before she was put on admin duties (3mths?), so I imagine it was the previous owner. If I were her, I would have felt my nursing career was in jeopardy, and certainly unlikely to return to the same ward under that cloud of suspicion, meaning she probably did little to make the home her own if it no longer felt like a permanent prospect

 

[Marantz4250b]

Agree. The photographs of her house from the estate agents are in the public domain, from both when she bought the house and when she sold it. I saw it on a Reddit post this morning. One of the bedrooms was a baby’s room.

Do you have links to those? The only pics on Rightmove are the most recent as it appears to have been marketed again a few months after she sold it but wasn't sold at that rime.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Do you have links to those? The only pics on Rightmove are the most recent as it appears to have been marketed again a few months after she sold it but wasn't sold at that rime.

Zoopla 2016: https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/41-westbourne-road/chester/ch1-5ba/36168873/

Rightmove 2019: House Price History

 

[JosieJo]

What did you make of her saying of Baby A:

"Forget it, I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him, and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself

Not the fact that she's accused of murdering Baby C minutes after that conversation ended, but the fact that she refers to "knowing" baby A. I think Melanie "Mel" Taylor had looked after Baby A on the day shift .LL had been there from 7.30pm, he deteriorated around 8.20pm and died at 8.58pm. Is it usual to refer to "knowing" a baby in those circumstances? ETA- as opposed to saying something like "looked after him"

source: podcast ‎The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested on Apple Podcasts

It's odd definitely...I can't believe she was so "sharp" to a colleague and friend..again to me screams of someone who doesn't like it when she doesn't get her own way ..jmo