UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

[Dotta]

prosecution's perspective, since they have the burden of proving their case.

Such a burden!
But they did excellent job!

 

[CS2C]

So I applied for a quotation for the entire transcript of the trial from Manchester Crown court. I filled out a EX107 and received the following reply. It doesn’t actually state what you require to obtain these transcripts and I am finding it difficult to find out any further information online. If anyone with knowledge can assist me it would be greatly appreciated.

The applicant, who describes himself as “a independent journalist” (sic) requests “a estimate” (sic) of the costs of a transcript of the entire trial. He also does not disclose his journalist credentials or the purpose for which he seeks a transcript.

I am not prepared to grant this request on the material provided.

 

[esther43]

KC

Such a burden!
But they did excellent job!

I am super impressed with how Mr NJ KC came through for the prosecution. I know Myers is good and I can see the talent there for 'building momentum' but Mr NJ KC was second to none in his patient and tactical approach.
His background in white collar crime must have left Myers very little room for manoeuvre in terms of catching out prosecution witnesses. Then when it came to dealing with letby herself he was very clever at remaining unpredictable and 'coming back to things later when she wasn't ready for them.
Finally, what I liked about NJ was that he knows when to quit. He knows how to get the defendent to say just enough for the jury to make an inference.

 

[Lincoln34]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Cashman was brought to court but refused to come up from the cells.

And, even if they did refuse to leave the prison then they should be made to. I'm not disputing that they appear to be able to refuse, legally, but they should not be.

The arguments as to saving public funds do not stand up because they have a right to attend the court so the prison van is already paid for, as is any necessary security; it's all private security these days anyway so will be on an agreed contract basis so G4S - or whoever - is getting paid anyway. The security argument is also bogus for the same reason and because of the fact that whatever it costs is miniscule compared with the benefit of society seeing justice done and being able to see major criminals receive their lawfully decreed sentences.

Justice for the victims dictates that the convicted should be present for sentence IMHO. Even those arrested can be restrained, handcuffed and searched. Those convicted of offences should be made to spear

Is that an invalid bath chair in the garage near the bin bag? Is so, curious why she would have that? If guilty.

i thought about that having seen @CS2C’s video today on the search. I know her parents were older parents but not that old surely?

 

[Dotta]

KC
I am super impressed with how Mr NJ KC came through for the prosecution. I know Myers is good and I can see the talent there for 'building momentum' but Mr NJ KC was second to none in his patient and tactical approach.
His background in white collar crime must have left Myers very little room for manoeuvre in terms of catching out prosecution witnesses. Then when it came to dealing with letby herself he was very clever at remaining unpredictable and 'coming back to things later when she wasn't ready for them.
Finally, what I liked about NJ was that he knows when to quit. He knows how to get the defendent to say just enough for the jury to make an inference.

And he even asked her to dance!

 

[esther43]

So I applied for a quotation for the entire transcript of the trial from Manchester Crown court. I filled out a EX107 and received the following reply. It doesn’t actually state what you require to obtain these transcripts and I am finding it difficult to find out any further information online. If anyone with knowledge can assist me it would be greatly appreciated.

The applicant, who describes himself as “a independent journalist” (sic) requests “a estimate” (sic) of the costs of a transcript of the entire trial. He also does not disclose his journalist credentials or the purpose for which he seeks a transcript.

I am not prepared to grant this request on the material provided.

 

[esther43]

I haven't got a clue but I would imagine that they risk assess applications until after the verdict has been delivered.

 

[Lincoln34]

So I applied for a quotation for the entire transcript of the trial from Manchester Crown court. I filled out a EX107 and received the following reply. It doesn’t actually state what you require to obtain these transcripts and I am finding it difficult to find out any further information online. If anyone with knowledge can assist me it would be greatly appreciated.

The applicant, who describes himself as “a independent journalist” (sic) requests “a estimate” (sic) of the costs of a transcript of the entire trial. He also does not disclose his journalist credentials or the purpose for which he seeks a transcript.

I am not prepared to grant this request on the material provided.

It’s probably easier to access after the verdict - which I know doesn’t help you any at this moment. There is a page on a legal search engine on getting a transcript but I suspect only available on that after the trail has concluded. How to find UK court transcripts | LexisNexis Blogs

 

[CS2C]

It’s probably easier to access after the verdict - which I know doesn’t help you any at this moment. There is a page on a legal search engine on getting a transcript but I suspect only available on that after the trail has concluded. How to find UK court transcripts | LexisNexis Blogs

Thanks Lincoln.

It doesn’t matter to me if it is after the verdict,It is just a little confusing as the public can by all accounts pay for these transcripts yet it doesn’t state what the restrictions or requirements are.

 

[Blanche]

Thanks Lincoln.

It doesn’t matter to me if it is after the verdict,It is just a little confusing as the public can by all accounts pay for these transcripts yet it doesn’t state what the restrictions or requirements are.

it's going to cost a fortune!

 

[Marantz4250b]

I saw in the last thread I saw a discussion about prison or secure psychiatric hospital, Beverly Allitt the nurse who was previously convicted of killing 4 children/babies actually went on hunger strike to get moved to Rampton, I know Rampton very well and believe me it is FAR better than a prison, Allitt knew exactly what she was doing. It so annoys me that she is still there and not in prison as it has been agreed she is not treatable.

Yep, as I mentioned a few days back, I am certain that one or two high profile perpetrators are in secure hospitals primarily for "management" purposes, rather than because they actually need to be.

IMO. MOO obvs.

 

[Lincoln34]

Thanks Lincoln.

It doesn’t matter to me if it is after the verdict,It is just a little confusing as the public can by all accounts pay for these transcripts yet it doesn’t state what the restrictions or requirements are.

I agree it is strange. I’ll look into it next week as I have access to Lexis and have a couple of friends/ colleagues who might know more

 

[CS2C]

I agree it is strange. I’ll look into it next week as I have access to Lexis and have a couple of friends/ colleagues who might know more

Thanks Lincoln, that would be a tremendous help !

 

[Tortoise]

Letby: "Searching people on Facebook is something I would do. Searching for [Child E and F's mum] would be when she was on my mind.
"...That is a normal pattern of behaviour for me."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, May 15 - defence continues

Mr Johnson asks why Letby told her defence lawyer "you still think of patients that you cared for" - when she hadn't directly cared for Child K.
"I think that is taking it out of context," Letby says,
She says it doesn't have to be a baby she directly looked after to remember them, and added she had played a part in her care.

Letby says she got on well with the mother at the time, that she thought about Child E often, and wanted to see how Child F was doing.

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Mr Johnson turns to the Facebook searches Letby made for parents of children in the indictment. Three searches are made for parents in quick succession. Mr Johnson asks what the link is.
Letby: "They are babies that have died and been seriously unwell."
Letby is asked about another series of searches for three parents' names.
LL: "They are babies that had something significant to them and they were on my mind."
Letby is asked why she didn't give that answer to the police.
LL: "Because I couldn't recall why I had looked at some of them."
NJ: "Is that a true answer?"
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "You were checking up on your victims."
LL: "No - I look at a variety of [parents]."

11:46am

NJ: "You were a killer who was looking at your victims, weren't you?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson asks about a series of other searches, and says one of the parents' names has an 'unusual spelling'. Letby is asked to spell that name out in court. She does it incorrectly.
NJ: "You read it [the name of the parent] off a handover sheet, didn't you?"
LL: "No."

11:49am

Letby is asked about another series of searches.
Letby: "They were on my mind at the time."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues



When I look at her answers, I ask myself why she stopped searching for parents of babies in the case after May 2016, why the babies she had cared for stopped being on her mind and her "normal pattern of behaviour" changed. The care for previous patients wasn't related to what she was doing months or years later.

I also have to wonder why the collection of handover sheets in the Morrisons' bag, which had an obvious association to be all together, and were kept separately from the other 200-odd sheets in her house, had not been supplemented with the sheets in the Ibiza bag which was just put under her bed with her nurse's badge, untouched for two years. It almost seems as if they had no use to her now, if she was using the handover sheets for her Facebook searches and she stopped doing the Facebook searches.

MOO

 

[esther43]

Letby: "Searching people on Facebook is something I would do. Searching for [Child E and F's mum] would be when she was on my mind.
"...That is a normal pattern of behaviour for me."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, May 15 - defence continues

Mr Johnson asks why Letby told her defence lawyer "you still think of patients that you cared for" - when she hadn't directly cared for Child K.
"I think that is taking it out of context," Letby says,
She says it doesn't have to be a baby she directly looked after to remember them, and added she had played a part in her care.

Letby says she got on well with the mother at the time, that she thought about Child E often, and wanted to see how Child F was doing.

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Mr Johnson turns to the Facebook searches Letby made for parents of children in the indictment. Three searches are made for parents in quick succession. Mr Johnson asks what the link is.
Letby: "They are babies that have died and been seriously unwell."
Letby is asked about another series of searches for three parents' names.
LL: "They are babies that had something significant to them and they were on my mind."
Letby is asked why she didn't give that answer to the police.
LL: "Because I couldn't recall why I had looked at some of them."
NJ: "Is that a true answer?"
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "You were checking up on your victims."
LL: "No - I look at a variety of [parents]."

11:46am

NJ: "You were a killer who was looking at your victims, weren't you?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson asks about a series of other searches, and says one of the parents' names has an 'unusual spelling'. Letby is asked to spell that name out in court. She does it incorrectly.
NJ: "You read it [the name of the parent] off a handover sheet, didn't you?"
LL: "No."

11:49am

Letby is asked about another series of searches.
Letby: "They were on my mind at the time."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues



When I look at her answers, I ask myself why she stopped searching for parents of babies in the case after May 2016, why the babies she had cared for stopped being on her mind and her "normal pattern of behaviour" changed. The care for previous patients wasn't related to what she was doing months or years later.

I also have to wonder why the collection of handover sheets in the Morrisons' bag, which had an obvious association to be all together, and were kept separately from the other 200-odd sheets in her house, had not been supplemented with the sheets in the Ibiza bag which was just put under her bed with her nurse's badge, untouched for two years. It almost seems as if they had no use to her now, if she was using the handover sheets for her Facebook searches and she stopped doing the Facebook searches.

MOO

Good point. It's not like the police swung round right after the Ibiza trip.
She was clearly 'reaquinted' with the sports direct bag' when she put her work badge in it.
But if she used the Ibiza bag after child N as she said she did, why would you dig out the sports direct bag' and deposit your badge there. The logical thing (if keeping handover sheets is even logical) would be to put your badge in your current workbag.
Or as you say, combine the whole lot together. As 'stuff that needs returning'

 

[esther43]

Good point. It's not like the police swung round right after the Ibiza trip.
She was clearly 'reaquinted' with the sports direct bag' when she put her work badge in it.
But if she used the Ibiza bag after child N as she said she did, why would you dig out the sports direct bag' and deposit your badge there. The logical thing (if keeping handover sheets is even logical) would be to put your badge in your current workbag.
Or as you say, combine the whole lot together. As 'stuff that needs returning'

 

[Tortoise]

Which is the Sports Direct bag esther?

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks Lincoln.

It doesn’t matter to me if it is after the verdict,It is just a little confusing as the public can by all accounts pay for these transcripts yet it doesn’t state what the restrictions or requirements are.

I'd imagine it has to do with reporting restrictions in this case, and the amount of redactions that would be required. If it was a very limited section of the evidence it might have been viewed differently, but I don't know.

 

[esther43]

Which is the Sports Direct bag esther?

It's the bag she was using before the the Ibiza bag. But you are right to pick me up on this because the bag under the bed was a Morrisons bag wasn't it?
By LLs account she had the SD bag and transferred into the Morrisons bag then after Ibiza, ditched the sports direct bag' ( don't know where it went)
But yeah, I forgot the Morrisons part!
Irrispective of this, it would still make more sense to gather together as you say.

 

[Tortoise]

It's the bag she was using before the the Ibiza bag. But you are right to pick me up on this because the bag under the bed was a Morrisons bag wasn't it?
By LLs account she had the SD bag and transferred into the Morrisons bag then after Ibiza, ditched the sports direct bag' ( don't know where it went)
But yeah, I forgot the Morrisons part!
Irrispective of this, it would still make more sense to gather together as you say.

I can't find any reference to a Sports Direct bag.

This was her testimony -


A photo of a Morrisons bag is shown to the court. It was recovered from Letby's home. It was Letby's 'work bag'.
An 'Ibiza bag' replaced the Morrisons bag for Letby. It was used for taking her uniform to work, her lunchbox, work documents and shoes.
The Morrisons bag had 31 handover notes, 17 relating to babies in the indictment.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

Letby is asked when the Morrisons work bag was placed under her bed. Letby says she cannot recall the Ibiza bag became her new bag after her trip to Ibiza around June 2016.
Letby is asked how the handover sheets ended up in her bag. She says after emptying her pockets, the sheets would end up in her work bag.
Nicholas Johnson: "You're ferrying work sheets to and from work."
Letby: "I can't say definitively."
NJ: "They must have been...why put them in that bag at all?"
LL: "I can't recall."
NJ: "Can't or won't?"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby