VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #28

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I entirely agree. This is just another criminal case. Yes, it's significant from a legal and social point of view due to how extremely unusual it is, but it's not of much relevance to government or the fabric of society.

This is not a case which has the state at its core; the Couzens case is of far more relevance as far as that is concerned as he acted upon the authority expressly given to him by the state as it is authorised to do under the law. He was acting, to an extent, as an agent of the state - Lucy Letby wasn't and she has never been handed any power held by the state in the way Couzens was. If the state wanted to influence any case to make it look better it would have been that one.

Even if the government did have legitimate cause to "interfere" it would do it by applying for court orders to do whatever it wanted to do and not by leaning on or applying undue pressure on the judge and lawyers involved.

Although I totally agree in that this case does not warrant government interference etc ...I disagree that its very different to the cousens case ...letby as a Registered nurse and employed by the NHS is also employed by the state in a position of trust with standards to uphold and a code of conduct to follow in and out of work.
She used that position of trust to kill if guilty..I do not find that much different to a police officer of similar level to LL flashing is warrant card to get a victim into his car.
Both equally abhorrent and similar in relation to public trust
 
Although I totally agree in that this case does not warrant government interference etc ...I disagree that its very different to the cousens case ...letby as a Registered nurse and employed by the NHS is also employed by the state in a position of trust with standards to uphold and a code of conduct to follow in and out of work.
She used that position of trust to kill if guilty..I do not find that much different to a police officer of similar level to LL flashing is warrant card to get a victim into his car.
Both equally abhorrent and similar in relation to public trust
If guilty....

With a steady "supply" of vulnerable victims.
Parents of whom were trusting.

After all, their children were entrusted to NHS State hospital.

JMO
 
LL isn't the first ever accused healthcare killer, and its unlikely she'll be the last. I'm not sure why you think this case is, or will be if she's found guilty, so politically important. Harold Shipman killed 250 people and nothing like what you're saying/implying happened because of his case. So what makes LL so different?
(edit for clarity: yes things get looked into, practices get changed etc, but these kinds of things are pretty standard and routine to happen after a bad event, nothing particularly out of the ordinary at all)
It's not politically important in particular, I simply imagine that persons holding ministerial duties as mentioned will be being kept informed as to where the case is at, at this stage, or if not then as part of "important" headlines. It is also possible that given it will become front page news, that some form of attempts at coordination might be taking place in order to manage that.

It's really not that unreasonable and is being misrepresented and misread that it will be more of a priority than it is in the wider scheme of things. I also think that these kinds of cases have an memetic impact on the consciousness of the populace and this warrants consideration by gov, and that positive and negative impacts of the news and the amount of focus on this kind of trial at its outcome stage are worth considering in wellbeing terms.

There is, I contend, a (dis)benefit to society beyond the more direct impacts of the alleged crimes perpetuated and a conduct of that can be the media. I do basically concur with what Marantz said though I totally disagree with the idea that this is a garden variety trial. It may be being run no differently, but you could say in the same way Hiroshima was simply an ordinary aerial bombing, or of Jack the Ripper "nothing to see here, move along", the Nuremberg trials, just a bog standard tribunal. Perhaps my earlier ramblings created an unintended sense of sensationalism. However, I fully stand by the thesis for now that it is not a case that is likely to be ignored at the high level.

It really is not unreasonable to expect to see this case hitting the House of Commons after the verdict, eg leading to joint statements made during PMQs, and you don't often get that with ordinary trials. You could very well say "so what?" But that would be complacent it is a sign of political interest being taken in the case and its ramifications. It could easily go beyond that into wider debates around risks and high reliability organizations (HROs) such as with previous NHS safety, care quality and mortality rate scandals.

So to some extent it does enter into the political scenes of life as more outwardly manifest, through the media and in the ways politicians behave. This at least suggests a wave of some sort through the fabric of society, even if only a difficulty-to-detect disturbance on the lake surface waters and not a bombshell of any seismic proportions. I do think as well that those mentioned who are the higher-ups have had sight of this particular case and potentially there is an effort to discuss, obtain some kind of steer or view, and coordinate the response. So I don't think my imagined "behind the scenes" activity is simply fantasy or was absurd as has been claimed in the put-downs of the grand high muckety mucks and Lord Snootys of the thread. Because it really isn't.

That doesn't mean that I might think or suggest in any way that might be a top priority or even in the top 1000 priorities of British Government top-list if there was such a thing. But this thread on an impending verdict is not about those other matters. Nor do I suggest remotely that this is somehow at the absolute forefront of the awarenesses of any particular person or organ of governance or justice delivery.

Imagine also that there is a major media attack on NHS HR, management and care standards after this case, regardless of verdict, but related to the case. Would it not be entirely complacent for civil servants, for example, to have failed to have briefed their ministers frequently and well, or in some way at least that this could be coming? Would it not be a failing to have not at least tried to collaborate with the court in seeking to manage the matter from a perspective of understanding timings and the extent to which restrictions on reporting might be in place, in advance? Perhaps it would be a step too far to request restrictions - I concede on that. However, I respectfully suggest there are ways of requesting which might not be explicit or unsubtle, neither constituting influence nor interference in any capricious sense, rather in full respect and harmony with the sovereignty of the Court and its agents. It is perfectly reasonable to expect all of this - and given it is NHS-related invariably qualifies as a political matter, given the sheer size, and societo-economic importance of the NHS, and the very important matters others have highlighted around values and expectations such as trust, and both this trust-brokenness issue and a much wider narrative in media, society and indeed high politics, about positions of power and abuse.

Just for the absolute avoidance of doubt, I submit respectfully, still as conjecture though, of course, that it is nevertheless reasonable and perhaps even normal for coordination to occur between those involved in "governance" and those involved in "the law and the courts "to be able to speak to each other, on an entirely professional basis, and be cooperative in coordinating matters in which unity, or an understanding of desirable and/or intended approaches may be helpful. This does not constitute "interference", "undue pressure" or anything else untoward or warranting some sort of adversarial, suspicious or concerned reaction. It is perfectly reasonable to conjecture this to be the case,

Also, echo infra VERDICT WATCH - UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #28, thank you @esther43.
 
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I entirely agree. This is just another criminal case. Yes, it's significant from a legal and social point of view due to how extremely unusual it is, but it's not of much relevance to government or the fabric of society.

This is not a case which has the state at its core; the Couzens case is of far more relevance as far as that is concerned as he acted upon the authority expressly given to him by the state as it is authorised to do under the law. He was acting, to an extent, as an agent of the state - Lucy Letby wasn't and she has never been handed any power held by the state in the way Couzens was. If the state wanted to influence any case to make it look better it would have been that one.

Even if the government did have legitimate cause to "interfere" it would do it by applying for court orders to do whatever it wanted to do and not by leaning on or applying undue pressure on the judge and lawyers involved.
Don't know about cousins but for Alit, it was such a controversy for the NHS, advice and permission had to be sought from the UK's highest lead prosecution who holds a special title ( forgot what it is) before the police investigation and arrest could go ahead.
With so much at stake regarding public confidence, I would have thought communications between this 'higher body' and the national crime agency would have been a first step in managing an operation of this nature and scale.
 
Although I totally agree in that this case does not warrant government interference etc ...I disagree that its very different to the cousens case ...letby as a Registered nurse and employed by the NHS is also employed by the state in a position of trust with standards to uphold and a code of conduct to follow in and out of work.
She used that position of trust to kill if guilty..I do not find that much different to a police officer of similar level to LL flashing is warrant card to get a victim into his car.
Both equally abhorrent and similar in relation to public trust
They are similar but they are significantly different; Couzens is, imo, of a different magnitude altogether because he was exercising the power granted to him by the state in order to commit his crimes. Not only the power of the state but a very unique power that allows him to detain other people on behalf of the state. It is a power which is instilled into everyone from a young age that the people exercising have the authority to do so.

I completely see what youre getting at but an NHS nurse is not exercising a power over others which has been granted by the state. Yes, it's an abuse of trust, an abuse of people under their care who are incapable of resisting but it it is significantly different to a police officer abusing his state granted power - a power which is afforded to no other section of society.

A nurse in a private hospital could carry out the same acts as in this case and teachers, carers, etc could do similar by abusing the trust in them. None of these people are entitled to stop people in the street, though, and lawfully detain them.

JMO
 
They are similar but they are significantly different; Couzens is, imo, of a different magnitude altogether because he was exercising the power granted to him by the state in order to commit his crimes. Not only the power of the state but a very unique power that allows him to detain other people on behalf of the state. It is a power which is instilled into everyone from a young age that the people exercising have the authority to do so.

I completely see what youre getting at but an NHS nurse is not exercising a power over others which has been granted by the state. Yes, it's an abuse of trust, an abuse of people under their care who are incapable of resisting but it it is significantly different to a police officer abusing his state granted power - a power which is afforded to no other section of society.

A nurse in a private hospital could carry out the same acts as in this case and teachers, carers, etc could do similar by abusing the trust in them. None of these people are entitled to stop people in the street, though, and lawfully detain them.

JMO
Abusing the trust the public have in their national health care system should never be downplayed.

If you cannot trust a nurse in your local hospital, then whom could you trust?

Surely not those who were responsible to recruit her and then supervise her work.

JMO
 
They are similar but they are significantly different; Couzens is, imo, of a different magnitude altogether because he was exercising the power granted to him by the state in order to commit his crimes. Not only the power of the state but a very unique power that allows him to detain other people on behalf of the state. It is a power which is instilled into everyone from a young age that the people exercising have the authority to do so.

I completely see what youre getting at but an NHS nurse is not exercising a power over others which has been granted by the state. Yes, it's an abuse of trust, an abuse of people under their care who are incapable of resisting but it it is significantly different to a police officer abusing his state granted power - a power which is afforded to no other section of society.

A nurse in a private hospital could carry out the same acts as in this case and teachers, carers, etc could do similar by abusing the trust in them. None of these people are entitled to stop people in the street, though, and lawfully detain them.

JMO
Can I ask why you would see an adult locked in a police cell, who has the agency and the right to contact legal representation as on par to or greater than the vulnerability of a defenceless 3lb baby who is being physically harmed or killed under the direct care of a nurse?
 
They are similar but they are significantly different; Couzens is, imo, of a different magnitude altogether because he was exercising the power granted to him by the state in order to commit his crimes. Not only the power of the state but a very unique power that allows him to detain other people on behalf of the state. It is a power which is instilled into everyone from a young age that the people exercising have the authority to do so.

I completely see what youre getting at but an NHS nurse is not exercising a power over others which has been granted by the state. Yes, it's an abuse of trust, an abuse of people under their care who are incapable of resisting but it it is significantly different to a police officer abusing his state granted power - a power which is afforded to no other section of society.

A nurse in a private hospital could carry out the same acts as in this case and teachers, carers, etc could do similar by abusing the trust in them. None of these people are entitled to stop people in the street, though, and lawfully detain them.

JMO

I just have to disagree its just a totally different type of power ...the main difference being the police have power in the street so to speak nurses in a hospital.
Both work for the state.
Cousins used his power in his "area" ...LL if guilty used it in hers.
People put their trust in nhs nurses everyday same as police
 
I personally think cops are on a very, very different standing to nurses in terms of who is carrying out the will and power of the government (and the ruling classes) and who isn't, but perhaps that's getting way too far into the weeds to stay on topic to discuss here I think.

As for how the public are going to perceive this case, I think we can already see how they see it. So many people here have already mentioned that nobody they know has even heard of it. News nowadays moves fast, there's so so much of it, and even the hugest and most shocking events seem to be moved on from very quickly, unless its your own pet issue that you deliberately follow. I think society has changed so much since Beverley Allitt and Shipman too; I think there is already such a huge skepticism now about the medical establishment that didn't exist back then that I don't think much damage will be done in terms of public trust in the NHS. I have a feeling that a lot of that damage has already well and truly happened.

JMO IMO
 
I personally think cops are on a very, very different standing to nurses in terms of who is carrying out the will and power of the government (and the ruling classes) and who isn't, but perhaps that's getting way too far into the weeds to stay on topic to discuss here I think.

As for how the public are going to perceive this case, I think we can already see how they see it. So many people here have already mentioned that nobody they know has even heard of it. News nowadays moves fast, there's so so much of it, and even the hugest and most shocking events seem to be moved on from very quickly, unless its your own pet issue that you deliberately follow. I think society has changed so much since Beverley Allitt and Shipman too; I think there is already such a huge skepticism now about the medical establishment that didn't exist back then that I don't think much damage will be done in terms of public trust in the NHS. I have a feeling that a lot of that damage has already well and truly happened.

JMO IMO

I agree that staffing crisis , underfunding and the numerous hospital trusts with poor CQC ratings are far more dangerous than the rarity of a health care serial killer. (Not to diminish the agony of the parents of course)
 
I agree that staffing crisis , underfunding and the numerous hospital trusts with poor CQC ratings are far more dangerous than the rarity of a health care serial killer. (Not to diminish the agony of the parents of course)
But all these create "ideal" conditions for unhinged ppl to play havoc.

Where was the supervision of her work?
Who was her immediate boss?

Would anything like this happen in a hospital run like a clock?
I doubt it.

Were there staff meetings after each collapse?
Were they discussing the causes and evaluating their care?

Or was it just another "rubbish" (quoting LL) day?

Day full of texting and vanishing documents.

JMO
 
Abusing the trust the public have in their national health care system should never be downplayed.

If you cannot trust a nurse in your local hospital, then whom could you trust?

Surely not those who were responsible to recruit her and then supervise her work.

JMO
I think the way the law sees it as being as “people are people, you can only have faith that they do as told” which of course the majority do. To try and achieve a totalitarian answer to anything is obviously impossible and perhaps not even desirable. The law is also a good recourse for anything else aside from ll guilt. If she is found guilty the public are aware and if any of the victims of the events in the trial are entitled to anything that will be seen to. Also the nhs is Well aware of safeguarding. if anything is in reflection thought to need improvement then that will be seen to as well. Either way alot of things have happened at coch that will be looked at I’m sure. Unfortunately sometimes things learned are learned through a painful process.
 
I feel there should be surveillance cameras at every bedside in every hospital.

There have been too many cases of people being harmed.

What about privacy issues? You already have no privacy as a hospital patient. The cameras would at least give you some reassurance that if you were harmed, it would be recorded.

I've been an in-patient in a hospital ward and had some poor treatment. My mother, an old lady, was treated poorly by a nurse who didn't want to be disturbed while she was gossiping with a colleague.

Maybe knowing they are being watched might help improve performance.
 
I feel there should be surveillance cameras at every bedside in every hospital.

There have been too many cases of people being harmed.

What about privacy issues? You already have no privacy as a hospital patient. The cameras would at least give you some reassurance that if you were harmed, it would be recorded.

I've been an in-patient in a hospital ward and had some poor treatment. My mother, an old lady, was treated poorly by a nurse who didn't want to be disturbed while she was gossiping with a colleague.

Maybe knowing they are being watched might help improve performance.
Was just thinking this and commented below. They'll never add CCTV because of the liability implications. They are underfunded and understaffed so the trust's would go broke pretty quickly imo
 
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