UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6

[Sundial]

I had the wrong year!
Happened in 2016.
Scary it went on so long and though I know, I still keep getting shocked.
Even a single case is huge.

No worries at all, I was thinking the same thing too with the holiday though.
It’s a lot to take in, I’ve re-read the trial again from today and I still can’t find a logical explanation/other possibilities. Strikingly, I did notice discolouration was mentioned twice shortly between the first and second collapses for baby D (after saline and dextrose were administered). It appears to be the same/similar discolouration of the other cases thus far. I really cannot imagine the heartache of all these families and those involved.

 

[MissMarbles]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

Well spotted!

 

[WaxLyrical]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

Complete Baader-Meinhof effect, but I’ve just read an article on BBC today about a judge’s sentencing remarks (in another harrowing U.K. murder case), whereby the judge has referred to the victim’s “overwhelming sepsis”. Perhaps it’s used more often than thought?

 

[Noseyposy76]

“Mum tells jury about a time before D died when Lucy #Letby was the only nurse in the room when she and her husband went to see D. Mum says Ms Letby was “sort of hovering by the incubator but not doing much. She sort of just was watching us.”

This is interesting in the context of comments here suggesting that LL should never have left the side of babies she was assigned to and that it was unusual behaviour for her to be assisting colleagues and engaging with other infants.

Here, it sounds like her staying at the baby’s bedside is also observed as being an odd behaviour.

Perhaps an example of how, through the lens of suspicion, all actions can start to look suspicious.

Yes, this is exactly why we are all reading everything so differently. When you don’t know someone or have all the facts, to make a judgment you can only rely on your gut. It is completely natural to follow your own instincts, but that leads to intuition bias, as you then base your opinions on those feelings. So far, there hasn’t been anything for me that can’t be explained away, but then my gut is not saying innocent either. I am no way claiming to be virtuous, as know if there was just one thing inexplicable to me, then I too would struggle not to look at everything through a suspicious lens. Some on here obviously have had at least just that one thing they can’t move away from and will now interpret what could be completely innocent as something nefarious instead.

Of course, the correct way to look at everything presented is objectively, but that is easier said than done it seems. Maybe that has to do with the nature of this case being so incredibly emotive.

Without having a smoking gun, think I’ll remain extremely conflicted.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Regarding 'overwhelming sepsis' - is it possible in any way that the babies were having a reaction to something else in the environment, even something they were breathing? Are they literally injected with a syringe? Do they have some type of wipe down at the injection site say with an antibac or alcohol wipe?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She is being tried for murder.
If the prosecution is successful,, she knows why.
I think that would render her conversations to the gaslighting category, if she is guilty as charged.
Perhaps she was merely trying to figure out what other people knew or if they had become suspicious at all.
'overwhelming' sepsis to meningitis.

Could it be the case that LL herself was feeling suspicious about the deaths and wondering if there was a serious problem and playing detective herself? That could possibly explain the searching the families FB too.

 

[Dcflag]

Just wanted to say having caught up with today. But not read the thread yet. Baby D was consistent with TTN. When googling, TTN appears to be very unlikely to cause death, and be common affecting term or near to term babies. Baby D for me is the first time I feel like there’s absolutely no way at all Baby D died of natural causes. From the text messages it appears the staff felt the same way as there’s multiple mentions of looking for underlying causes.

 

[Dcflag]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

This is an incredible spot imo. We also know similar with the Docu and air embolus. Do we know when the Docu was watched in relation to which baby it was near etc?

I read it as two more injections later on; just a little stunned really (IMO) there appears to be something which happens not long after these 3 events of medications. I can’t get my head round it. Even with the comments made to colleagues about “sepsis” I haven’t read anything from today which even suggested that. Unless I’ve completely missed it?

I think this is the point to be honest. I think they’re so baffled that there was no signs this baby was going to die they’re now thinking they have to have missed something like sepsis.

 

[Becci]

Neonatal air leak syndrome?

 

[annpats]

Complete Baader-Meinhof effect, but I’ve just read an article on BBC today about a judge’s sentencing remarks (in another harrowing U.K. murder case), whereby the judge has referred to the victim’s “overwhelming sepsis”. Perhaps it’s used more often than thought?

Wow, what were the chances?!
Maybe it's the 'in thing' to say at the moment?
I, myself, have never heard the term before now.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Complete Baader-Meinhof effect, but I’ve just read an article on BBC today about a judge’s sentencing remarks (in another harrowing U.K. murder case), whereby the judge has referred to the victim’s “overwhelming sepsis”. Perhaps it’s used more often than thought?

I think that might be the case. Not endorsing the idea that this baby did indeed have sepsis but I don't think LL necessarily lifted the phrase from her colleague. It seems to be a phrase with clinical meaning as indicated in this research paper. Perhaps it was a term the nursing staff commonly used, whether it applies to Baby D or not.

Overwhelming sepsis presenting as sudden unexpected death.

Four children, including three infants, who died suddenly and unexpectedly are described. In three of the cases group A beta haemolytic streptococcus was cultured and in the fourth Streptococcus pneumoniae. The organism was grown from multiple sites including ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dotta]

I think that might be the case. Not endorsing the idea that this baby did indeed have sepsis but I don't think LL necessarily lifted the phrase from her colleague. It seems to be a phrase with clinical meaning as indicated in this research paper. Perhaps it was a term the nursing staff commonly used, whether it applies to Baby D or not.

Overwhelming sepsis presenting as sudden unexpected death.

Four children, including three infants, who died suddenly and unexpectedly are described. In three of the cases group A beta haemolytic streptococcus was cultured and in the fourth Streptococcus pneumoniae. The organism was grown from multiple sites including ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But can't sepsis be detected by blood tests?
Bacteria, viruses, infection, etc?

 

[Tortoise]

There were a couple of instances of vagueness in the reporting today - perhaps to protect/respect the privacy of the family. I wonder if whatever information it was will assist the jury in understanding LL better.

"The colleague refers to what Child D looked like in their care.
Letby replies: "I think there is an element of fate involved. There is a reason for everything."

later on

"She [LL] then refers to the condition of the mother of Child D."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3


Also, perhaps a more accurate transcript of one of LL's texts -

"But then sometimes I think how is it such sick babies get through and others die so suddenly and unexpectedly. Guess it's how it is meant to be."

Nurse accused of murdering babies told colleague 'fate' part of deaths

compared to what was reported by CS:

"Letby says: "How do such sick babies get through and others get to [die] so unexpectedly?"

(I mentioned previously how the CS reporter doesn't always get down the full text messages in his reports)

What LL seems to be saying here is that baby D had good prospects compared to others.

 

[Mo Thuairim]

But can't sepsis be detected by blood tests?
Bacteria, viruses, infection, etc?

Oh I'm not arguing that the baby had sepsis. I don't think that. My comment was just about her repeating the phrase "overwhelming sepsis", which her colleague had used previously about another baby. It doesn't seem that unusual a term. It's a minor point really.

 

[Supernovae]

Complete Baader-Meinhof effect, but I’ve just read an article on BBC today about a judge’s sentencing remarks (in another harrowing U.K. murder case), whereby the judge has referred to the victim’s “overwhelming sepsis”. Perhaps it’s used more often than thought?

Is that Sebastian Kalinowski?

 

[TraderJones]

Would it be unusual to refer to baby D's death as a case? I'm so used to using the word case on here that it has connotations for me as a criminal investigation, but perhaps it's normal in terms of patient deaths too. I'm not saying she thinks it's a criminal investigation, but might be thinking in those terms. Maybe I'm off on this.

about half an hour after coming off shift, she texted a colleague -


"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis".

She adds that two members of staff said the circumstances "would be investigated".

The colleague replies: "Dad was very anxious all day." and adds, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"

Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.

"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

Good observation, but I don't think so. We talk about 'case studies' in science & social science all the time. Also can refer to conditions 'a case of chicken pox', pretty common lingo in the medical industry I'd imagine.

 

[FruitTingles]

3:11pm

A text message sent from Lucy Letby to a colleague said, at 8.36am: "We had such a rubbish night.
"Our job is just far too sad sometimes."
The colleague replied: "No what happened?"
Letby: "We lost [Child D]."
The colleague: "What!!!! But she was improving. What happened?
"Wanna chat? I can't believe you were on again. You are having such a tough time."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

This is an incredible spot imo. We also know similar with the Docu and air embolus. Do we know when the Docu was watched in relation to which baby it was near etc?

I think this is the point to be honest. I think they’re so baffled that there was no signs this baby was going to die they’re now thinking they have to have missed something like sepsis.

BBM, your comment about the staff being baffled because there were no signs Child D was going to die aligns with text messages between LL and a colleague who actually expressed she was shocked because Child D was improving. It is mentioned that staff didn’t seem concerned about Child D after birth. So with all of this evidence mentioned unthread put together and the eventual death of the baby, stands out as very suspicious to me. This is the smoking gun for me. IMO

 

[Sundial]

Would it be unusual to refer to baby D's death as a case? I'm so used to using the word case on here that it has connotations for me as a criminal investigation, but perhaps it's normal in terms of patient deaths too. I'm not saying she thinks it's a criminal investigation, but might be thinking in those terms. Maybe I'm off on this.

about half an hour after coming off shift, she texted a colleague -


"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis".

She adds that two members of staff said the circumstances "would be investigated".

The colleague replies: "Dad was very anxious all day." and adds, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"

Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.

"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

In some instance yes, but also equally no.. It depends. The term “case” is also used as “case study” in nurse training where examples are given for students to examine “the case study”, as example scenarios. These are an analysis or training exercise if you will as part of developing skills in different situations.

It may not necessarily mean this in the conversation LL is having (and suggest odd behaviour) and could be unusual to some.. BUT equally, seeing the word “as in the case of” or the “case study of” etc is also used as an example in training exercises (and also reviews of various health related vocations when doing comparisons etc). Nurse training is half theory (written component) and half practice (hands on). Part of the theory is reflection of a case, study, situation, circumstance (“or case”) which can still be seen/referred to (and written as such) even after qualifying.

 

[Tortoise]

All these texts viewed as a whole have the feel of the weight of responsibility about them, even though she wasn't the designated nurse for C and D. It feels like leakage of pressure, like she's not part of a team that's suffered too. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

BBM, your comment about the staff being baffled because there were no signs Child D was going to die aligns with text messages between LL and a colleague who actually expressed she was shocked because Child D was improving. It is mentioned that staff didn’t seem concerned about Child D after birth. So with all of this evidence mentioned unthread put together and the eventual death of the baby, stands out as very suspicious to me. This is the smoking gun for me. IMO

Today was the first day I became truly disturbed and had to recall memories of how we processed deaths together and individually. Mostly, we made tea and sat in complete and absolute silence for several minutes when time allowed.
It was both awful and cathartic.
I needed that space quite badly after today.
And i realised I had missed it and the special people I shared it with, now dead.

I don't know for sure if it was the smoking gun but I got a sense of overwhelming desperate grief.

That poor mother, in severe pain aand in a wheelchair trying to process that worst possible nightmarish scene and s4ill being capable of noticing such an anomaly and asking that she be moved is utterly heroic and awful, just awful!