GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #32

[cottonweaver]

In all the evidence discussed about the whole case, there has been no mention of LL's medical records - even just to say - nothing unusual. It would help to know if she had ever been prescribed any medication at the time of the killings. I still had this vague theory she may have had an abortion or miscarriage (particularly re her bedside reading material) and psychosis after a child dying is known about. Some anti depressants have strange effects on people too. Presumably, though they would have looked at her medical records and know if she had had an abortion or miscarriage.

But if she had to keep it secret (due to the alleged affair? or to keep it from her parents) it could have unhinged her dealing with other people's babies every day. Assuming it only started in 2015.

It's the only psychiatric cause I can think of that would trigger someone to start doing this. There hadn't been such high rates before.

Psychiatric disorders following fetal death: a population-based cohort study

Objectives Women have increased risks of severe mental disorders after childbirth and death of a child, but it remains unclear whether this association also applies to fetal loss and, if so, to which extent. We studied the risk of any inpatient or outpatient psychiatric treatment during the time...

bmjopen.bmj.com

https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/after-birth/your-mental-health/postpartum-psychosis

I did find this snippet from the friend potentially interesting - bit in bold, below

'
Dawn said Lucy had always wanted to be a nurse: ‘It was always her aspiration – her dream – to become a nurse and to help babies.

‘She told me she’d had quite a difficult birth herself and was quite poorly, and I think that’s affected a lot of her life.'

Whether it's a verified fact or not, IDK ( prosecutor & cops cautioned that LL was dishonest)

Childhood friend of Lucy Letby insists 'bubbly' baby killer is innocent

She is one of many friends who support Lucy Letby.

metro.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

Add irresponsibility and a lack of curiosity into your list?


At the same time that L was murdering and poisoning tiny babies a nurse 50 miles away had just got a life sentence for murdering patients.

Chambers and the other department managers would have been well aware - was all over the national news for month ( Am assuming that LL was also familiar with the Stepping Hill murders)

Stepping Hill nurse Victorino Chua guilty of murdering patients

A hospital nurse who used insulin to tamper with medical supplies is found guilty of murdering two patients and poisoning 20 others.

www.bbc.co.uk

I am stunned that no senior manager/exec like Chambers made the link or considered it as a possibility.


May 2015 Stepping Hill nurse Victorino Chua guilty of murdering patients

'
A nurse has been convicted of murdering two patients and poisoning 20 others at a Greater Manchester hospital.
Victorino Chua killed Tracey Arden, 44, and Derek Weaver, 83, at Stepping Hill Hospital in Stockport by injecting insulin into saline bags and ampoules.
These were then unwittingly used by other hospital nurses on Chua's victims, who were mostly elderly.
The father of two, 49, who was cleared of a third murder charge, left one patient with a serious brain injury.'


LL starts murdering in autumn 2015?

June 2015 as far as we know. So it looks like Chua was found guilty on 19th May and LL murdered Baby A around three weeks later.

 

[Seattle1]

This is so messed up. After following some recent teen mother cases giving birth and disposing of their newborns, I'm wondering if LL previously experienced a teen pregnancy, and was compelled to seek abortion. The innocent victims here seemed to be born to happy, expectant couples where the babies were going to good homes. IMO, LL seemed to resent both the parents and their infants.

 

[katydid23]

I actually feel for him a bit. What he did behind his wife's back was obviously very naughty but a lot of men do it. He must feel he was violated by letby, used for information.
Also, with us now having a clearer idea on the positioning of senior and middle nursing management, it makes you wonder which camps Dr choc was in with his colleagues whilst all this was unfolding. I still get get past the idea that LL said in court she got on with all the drs. What a liar, they were writing you letters of apology, much to their disgust!!

She also testified that she got on well with Baby E and F's parents----and they came to court to say LL murdered their baby. So her ability to assess her relationships is out of wack.

 

[ColourPurple]

Maybe a video link? I think she should have to listen to the victim statements at the very least.

I think in LL's case she would probably enjoy listening to them tbh so maybe better she doesn't.

 

[iamshadow21]

I did find this snippet from the friend potentially interesting - bit in bold, below

'
Dawn said Lucy had always wanted to be a nurse: ‘It was always her aspiration – her dream – to become a nurse and to help babies.

‘She told me she’d had quite a difficult birth herself and was quite poorly, and I think that’s affected a lot of her life.'

Whether it's a verified fact or not, IDK ( prosecutor & cops cautioned that LL was dishonest)

Childhood friend of Lucy Letby insists 'bubbly' baby killer is innocent

She is one of many friends who support Lucy Letby.

metro.co.uk

I think that if someone said it, it would make people around them feel, 'oh gosh, they're such a good person wanting to help babies like they were helped as a baby. that's such a noble thing to dedicate their life to.'

If it's true, then well, that's one thing. But if that thing they said isn't true, then they're getting a nice little bump of admiration from people every time they say it. And even if it was true, and they were using it to deliberately manipulate people into seeing them a certain way...

It could be 100% true and the reason LL got into nursing. But there are layers to be considered, here, when we ponder this, but also the communications that came up at trial. That there might be motivations and aims below the surface pleasantries to consider.

MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't think victim statements would convince her friends. They would feel empathy for the victims but deny it was anything to do with LL.

It occurred to me that the Police must have been certain about her guilt, if they informed families before the trial.'

The Criminologist on the Panorama programme though didn't seem to believe there was enough evidence and particularly felt the notes could have meant anything. ie her expressing what people were saying she had done, not some kind of confession. There must have been something about the trial process that convinced the jury.

Ironically LL taking the stand was a turning point for a lot of people who had previously been on the fence or had believed she was innocent.

 

[Seattle1]

I can't get to a point where I catch up with all posts, so sorry if this has been said already, but I suspect it that forcing her might be in breach of a human rights law. She could also be claiming that she can't attend due to her mental health. The court might be treading very carefully in that case, so as not to be accused of unfair treatment which she could use to strengthen her basis for appeal (if she's planning to). This is all just my opinion. I could be completely wrong!

I believe this is being misrepresented. LL chose not to appear in court to hear the verdict which is generally optional for the defendant in both UK and the US.

 

[DianaWW]

Without autopsies or toxicology results-- the infant deaths were not treated as suspicious or homicides until long after LL's arrest. I'm so sorry for the other baby murders that could not pass the hurdle for a conviction.

Now that UK news and analysts are allowed to discuss the case, it's shocking to learn the lack of direct evidence for the murders, and that LL was arrested twice and released, and not until the third arrest were charges filed and the case moved forward! I hope all were finally relieved and comforted that she'd been incarcerated for more than a thousand days pending trial.

There were autopsies in 6 out of the 7 deaths.

Unfortunately deliberate harm was the furthest thing from anyone’s minds, so nothing was picked up, even in the cases where no clear cause of death was determined by the autopsy.

Even when baby O was found to have trauma to his liver likened to that found in a car accident.

The whole thing is completely unbelievable really. Yet here we are.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I also do not for one minute believe the married doctor's claims she had an "unrequited" obsession with him. He was an unfortunate-looking middle aged dad, she was a slim 26 year old, decent looking and single. She would not have looked at him twice if he wasn't already paying her attention. It's clear from his texts and his actions he was infatuated with her. I always suspected he liked her more than she did him, and she primarily just enjoyed wrapping him around her little finger. She obviously materially benefitted from his taking her on shopping trips and to restaurants. She clearly did want him there for the June 2016 cases, but this is by no means her primary motive, it was just a bonus for her in my opinion.

Did you actually see him in court? I'm very curious as to him.

 

[DianaWW]

I believe this is being misrepresented. LL chose not to appear in court to hear the verdict which is generally optional for the defendant in both UK and the US.

Yes. However the argument is that it shouldn’t be optional.

 

[Lyall0814]

I agree.

Ultimately, though, nothing will be done. Nothing will change. The people who enabled her rampage will go unpunished and normal service will resume.

The usual suspects will declare that "lessons will be learned" which will be a total lie. And they know it as a total lie as soon as they decide to say it.

Imo it's not a lie, it's just they find outside interference intolerable and a hindrance to the running of the hospitals.

 

[IDK]

In all the evidence discussed about the whole case, there has been no mention of LL's medical records - even just to say - nothing unusual. It would help to know if she had ever been prescribed any medication at the time of the killings. I still had this vague theory she may have had an abortion or miscarriage (particularly re her bedside reading material) and psychosis after a child dying is known about. Some anti depressants have strange effects on people too. Presumably, though they would have looked at her medical records and know if she had had an abortion or miscarriage.

But if she had to keep it secret (due to the alleged affair? or to keep it from her parents) it could have unhinged her dealing with other people's babies every day. Assuming it only started in 2015.

It's the only psychiatric cause I can think of that would trigger someone to start doing this. There hadn't been such high rates before.

Psychiatric disorders following fetal death: a population-based cohort study

Objectives Women have increased risks of severe mental disorders after childbirth and death of a child, but it remains unclear whether this association also applies to fetal loss and, if so, to which extent. We studied the risk of any inpatient or outpatient psychiatric treatment during the time...

bmjopen.bmj.com

https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/after-birth/your-mental-health/postpartum-psychosis

She had been diagnosed with optic neuritis in 2015 which is sometimes treated with steroids. Apparently it can also be a precursor to MS.

in her arrest video, she also mentioned a recent knee injury— or was it a recent surgery? Maybe why her dad was staying with her?

I’m not saying these are related, just interesting to note, IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Former minister suggests broadcasting Lucy Letby’s sentencing to her cell

Tory Robert Buckland, a former justice secretary, says killer nurse should have ‘nowhere to hide’ if she won’t attend court

www.theguardian.com

“My suggestion would be to make sure that there was a live link beamed into the cell of the sound and/or send pictures to ensure that Letby has nowhere to hide and in fact has to listen to what the judge is saying about the case,” he said.

“Most importantly, she needs to hear the victim’s personal statements as impact statements that will really bring home, I think, to the wider world, the appalling devastating impact the loss of these innocent children, these innocent babies, has had upon dozens of families.”

 

[Stella123]

This is so messed up. After following some recent teen mother cases giving birth and disposing of their newborns, I'm wondering if LL previously experienced a teen pregnancy, and was compelled to seek abortion. The innocent victims here seemed to be born to happy, expectant couples where the babies were going to good homes. IMO, LL seemed to resent both the parents and their infants.

I thought something similar above

In all the evidence discussed about the whole case, there has been no mention of LL's medical records - even just to say - nothing unusual. It would help to know if she had ever been prescribed any medication at the time of the killings. I still had this vague theory she may have had an abortion or miscarriage (particularly re her bedside reading material) and psychosis after a child dying is known about. Some anti depressants have strange effects on people too. Presumably, though they would have looked at her medical records and know if she had had an abortion or miscarriage.

But if she had to keep it secret (due to the alleged affair? or to keep it from her parents) it could have unhinged her dealing with other people's babies every day. Assuming it only started in 2015.

It's the only psychiatric cause I can think of that would trigger someone to start doing this. There hadn't been such high rates before.


Psychiatric disorders following fetal death: a population-based cohort study | BMJ Open


https://www.tommys.org/pregnancy-information/after-birth/your-mental-health/postpartum-psychosis

 

[Stella123]

She had been diagnosed with optic neuritis in 2015 which is sometimes treated with steroids. Apparently it can also be a precursor to MS.

in her arrest video, she also mentioned a recent knee injury— or was it a recent surgery? Maybe why her dad was staying with her?

I’m not saying these are related, just interesting to note, IMO.

Thank you. Do you have a link about that please? Maybe I missed it earlier. Steroids can make people go a bit loopy - depending on the dosage. It's usually high doses that have psychological effects.

Yes I remember there was something about her arrest, her saying she'd had knee surgery - and I wondered if that was actual or an attempt at sympathy.

 

[Marantz4250b]

This is so shocking. Just unbelievable. Why were they fighting so hard for her? I know they wanted to protect their reputation but this is just madness.

I've said similar - there is more going on, I'm sure.

I don't think that "they" were fighting so hard for her, rather that, one person may have been!

The reputation of the hospital/trust doesn't come into it, I don't think.

 

[Lola68]

This is basically my theory - endorsed by a real-life consultant forensic psychiatrist and not an armchair sleuth like me (caveat: he hasn't met LL and his LinkedIn profile highlights an appearance on This Morning - make of that what you will )

"I think at a stretch you could say she was jealous of these happy families," says Dr Das. "I think maybe [an explanation could be] that she is somehow connected potentially to the emotional process of grieving. She was present when a lot of these babies died, sometimes when they weren't even her patients, it's almost like she went out of her way to be part of that. And that's something I've never heard of or seen in my clinical experience, but it's the only logical answer I can come to."

Lucy Letby: Inside the mind of a serial killer - the psychology behind healthcare murderers

Former Countess of Chester hospital nurse Lucy Letby joins GP Harold Shipman and nurse Beverley Allitt on the list of UK healthcare professional serial killers. Here, Sky News speaks to psychologists about possible motivations for such horrific crimes.

news.sky.com

 

[Seattle1]

But it's because what she's done is so depraved and beyond belief, surely?

No wonder they're struggling, even now, post-verdict, to get their heads around the idea that their longtime friend Lucy, someone they felt they knew the bones of, could possibly be this person. That's a huge and deeply traumatic leap for them to make, psychologically and otherwise.

Let's leave them alone to process this in their own way and in their own time.

IMO, I think not wanting to believe LL guilty is also in part due to the lack of direct evidence.

This trial happened in the days of CSI and crime shows where we can better wrap our minds around forensic evidence. I can also see her supporters holding tight to the recent convictions of nurses with their convictions overturned.

Here, LL chose neonatal infants where death would not necessarily be unexpected, coupled with the deaths not initially being considered suspicious, and therefore no autopsies or toxicology testing followed. (Similar to elderly patient deaths and where convictions were recently overturned).

I'm shattered for the parents of the murdered babies where the evidence or lack of didn't pass the hurdle for conviction.

MOO

 

[IDK]

Thank you. Do you have a link about that please? Maybe I missed it earlier. Steroids can make people go a bit loopy - depending on the dosage. It's usually high doses that have psychological effects.

Yes I remember there was something about her arrest, her saying she'd had knee surgery - and I wondered if that was actual or an attempt at sympathy.

Sure, I’ve read it several places, but this it the first article that popped up when I googled it just now:

“She told the court her health was “fine” in 2015 and 2016, although in 2015 she had been diagnosed with optic neuritis, a condition caused by inflammation of the optic nerve which can cause pain and blurred vision.

Letby received treatment at the Countess and also at the Walton Centre in Liverpool before the issue was “resolved”.

Lucy Letby always wanted to work with children, court heard

After completing her A-levels at a sixth form college, she went on to study nursing at the University of Chester.

www.bracknellnews.co.uk