GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #32

[Charlot123]

She was socially awkward, probably her religious background prevented her from having casual flings.
She bought a house with a possible dream of having a family.

I think she developed some feelings for Dr A (he features in her notes, emotional breakdown in Court).

IMO she is seriously mentally unstable with violent mood swings.
And unable to cope with them.

Im amazed she wasn't diagnosed and appropriately treated - both pharmacologically and by therapies.

She should have never ever been allowed to work with vulnerable patients.

JMO

Problem is, are such people properly diagnosable?

In garden-variety conditions, where people might end up being violent, usually there are outbursts of violence. This, of course, is very treatable. The situation when there is serial hospital murder who is otherwise doing fine, even growing in the system, buying a house, having a relationship, not visibly failing in any area, is pretty rare.

With all variety of new medications, the area that is totally uncovered and unmedicated is alexithymia, the inability to identify and describe emotions. I am wondering if LL had it. Her “boredom” makes me wonder. This, on the one hand, and probably strong obsessive component on the other. There is something promising for OCD, Tourette’s and the likes now in phase 2-3 of clinical trials, at least.

 

[SunshineGal363]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster here. Like many here I've followed this case for some time with interest and horror. I must admit when the case started I was on the fence as to her innocence/guilt, but as the prosecution linked all the evidence together and Letby took the stand and her lies were exposed it became more obvious. I know some weren't happy with how long the jury were taking, but I can't imagine how tough it must have been for them to work on such a difficult trial for so long.

I read the parents' impact statements today and my heart broke, but it was listening to them on the radio (read by producers) as I drove home this evening and had a good old cry. Those poor poor children. Knowing that many of them suffered is just impossible to comprehend, and I feel so much for their parents. Though I agree that those found guilty should attend sentencing, I'm glad the parents were able to have their say without her taking anything away from them - and like many of you have said, she seemed the kind who'd revel in their grief.

Anyway I just came on here to say that I'm glad justice has been done, and thank you to all the posters (and admins too) and for keeping us all updated.

 

[notsure]

Problem is, are such people properly diagnosable?

In garden-variety conditions, where people might end up being violent, usually there are outbursts of violence. This, of course, is very treatable. The situation when there is serial hospital murder who is otherwise doing fine, even growing in the system, buying a house, having a relationship, not visibly failing in any area, is pretty rare.

With all variety of new medications, the area that is totally uncovered and unmedicated is alexithymia, the inability to identify and describe emotions. I am wondering if LL had it. Her “boredom” makes me wonder. This, on the one hand, and probably strong obsessive component on the other. There is something promising for OCD, Tourette’s and the likes now in phase 2-3 of clinical trials, at least.

She had the ideal outlet for her violent outbursts: victims that could not fight back in an environment in which she was not suspected for a long time. With all sorts of other "benefits" - attention, praise for her resuscitation skills, etc.

 

[cottonweaver]

and I believe came out the more she lived alone?

and moving close to the hospital ( within walking distance, popping-in even when she wasn't on shift)

there were TVs in her bedroom in the house and now I can envisage her gorging on her medical por* TV programmes in her bedroom or planning her next attack with no distractions from the ' suffocating' ( she said ) parents or other nurses/doctors in adjacent rooms

 

[Anxala]

Lord, what a very bleak and harrowing day it's been.

What makes it even more bleak and harrowing is that, unlike most other trials, once the verdict is in and the sentencing is done, they can be put to bed and we can feel the degree of entitled satisfaction - celebration even - that justice has been done. But we can't do that in this case because the full extent of what LL did is not just unknown but grimly now under potential 'tip of the iceberg' investigation.

I really hope the WoL sentencing has brought some small degree of meaningful comfort to the parents but I'm not sure even that can begin to ease the unbearably present raw grief and pain that was so evident and tangible in their collective victim statements today. Their strength and courage and resilience in the face of such long-term personal trauma was absolutely humbling to witness.

So many 'whole of life' sentences here that don't involve physical prison walls.

 

[JosieJo]

The judge

"His final words, once the television cameras were switched off, were directed towards the families of the victims. To those whose children had been murdered he offered his “serious condolences” and then, as his voice cracked with emotion, he added: “For all of you, your lives will remain transformed. Your behaviour and dignity has been the highest.”

‘My arms felt so painfully empty’: parents of Lucy Letby’s victims tell court of their loss

The murderer would not appear in the dock, as families told of lives turned upside down by horror and grief

www.theguardian.com

 

[JTS101]

I haven't posted for quite some time because I found this case upsetting, however I have found all your insights here have taught me a great deal. My own thoughts and opinions are that this defies analysis to me because LL's actions and motivations are outside the realms of normal thinking. I have heard that Munchausen's by Proxy (MBP) has been suggested by a few, which although sounds sensible, I think sanitises the motivations somewhat. Alluding to another similar case many years ago, this was also suggested, but more recent opinions are very much darker. There is a series called "The Beverley Allitt Tapes" which offers an analysis of why a nurse may become involved in such horrendous acts and has been alluded to by a previous post.

She got off on the aftermaths. I believe that the parents were her targets (maybe a hatred for her own?), she studied them pre and post attack, played god deciding which ones were worthy of being parents and which weren't.
Toying with all the people around her like a cat and an asolute grief thief.

I believe that her upbringing had a huge hand in it too. Her parents wrapped that lass in cotton wool and in my opinion gave her such a god complex. Little perfect Lucy, little clever Lucy, Lucy can't do no wrong. I hate it looking like I'm placing some blame elsewhere as it was her and her alone who did this, but their actions show to me that she believed in their hype. They treat her like a child, even in adulthood, the whole dad contacting the hospital, rearranging the teddies in her room, her mam shouting I did it, take me... they mollycoddled her, and as a result of her upbringing, she developed the tools she needed in order to manipulate those around her into believing that she was an angel.
In her note that people have analysed and picked apart, there was always the one part that stood out to me, a part that many of the innocence brigade clung onto as a tool in their arguments, but to me it was the most telling... "I haven't done anything wrong" I truly believe that she believed that, when she wrote it and even now. She will have gone her whole life being told by her parents that she can do no wrong and even after attacking babies she believes that her, sweet Lucy still hasn't done anything wrong and can never do anything wrong.

This is consistent with the analysis in the series. My opinion that the motivations are much darker than MBP is all the more upsetting and all the harder to analyse. My main thoughts are now hoping for healing and comfort for all those poor families and surviving victims. I would welcome your thoughts on this.

 

[JTS101]

dbm

 

[Dotta]

Good job Cheshire Police!
Respect!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1693601489195864434

 

[iamshadow21]

The judge

"His final words, once the television cameras were switched off, were directed towards the families of the victims. To those whose children had been murdered he offered his “serious condolences” and then, as his voice cracked with emotion, he added: “For all of you, your lives will remain transformed. Your behaviour and dignity has been the highest.”

‘My arms felt so painfully empty’: parents of Lucy Letby’s victims tell court of their loss

The murderer would not appear in the dock, as families told of lives turned upside down by horror and grief

www.theguardian.com

I wondered how close he was to tears. There were a few moments when he was reading where he paused or cleared his throat where he seemed to be holding on to his composure for dear life. Judge Werner's sentencing from the Gannon trial still is up on a pedestal for me, but this is a very close second, for how well the person who's had to oversee everything and ensure a fair trial managed that onerous task, and also how they got to tie a big bow on it and make it known just how heinous they believed the crimes, and the actions of the perpetrator, were, and lay down an appropriate sentence.

Thank you, Justice Goss, for steering a very weighty ship with a precious cargo over ten torturous months to today, and to a verdict in the majority of the charges.

MOO

 

[Sundial]

I'm really glad that Sentencing followed soooo quickly after verdicts.

In some cases, it happens even a month or months later.

So this is THE END.

In part.. it is.
But, as things have been ramping up and I keep thinking back to dr J statement last week- there’s this horrible bubbling of ugliness just beneath the surface and I feel it’s about to get extremely messy, ugly in due course. Some of the things coming out (upthread someone has posted about the MP not being invited or accepting her requests to visit previously and lack of any kind of bereavement care or management who have been reported to have tried to obstruct the police gaining access to medical files), for starters.. I don’t even think we have scratched the surface how far this truly goes.

Not only are these deaths and harm to these babies so deeply disturbing someone could do something so inhumane; but the power at the top of the chain has quite frankly been absolutely categorically staggering. They should be answerable for that, they owe it at least to these poor devastated parents.

 

[cottonweaver]

I haven't posted for quite some time because I found this case upsetting, however I have found all your insights here have taught me a great deal. My own thoughts and opinions are that this defies analysis to me because LL's actions and motivations are outside the realms of normal thinking. I have heard that Munchausen's by Proxy (MBP) has been suggested by a few, which although sounds sensible, I think sanitises the motivations somewhat. Alluding to another similar case many years ago, this was also suggested, but more recent opinions are very much darker. There is a series called "The Beverley Allitt Tapes" which offers an analysis of why a nurse may become involved in such horrendous acts and has been alluded to by a previous post.

This is consistent with the analysis in the series. My opinion that the motivations are much darker than MBP is all the more upsetting and all the harder to analyse. My main thoughts are now hoping for healing and comfort for all those poor families and surviving victims. I would welcome your thoughts on this.

I don't know, haven't been following the case since the outset but MbP is often comorbid with other personality disorders and I heard a crim psych refer to Beverley Allitt as ' untreatable psychopath' this week ( Alongside BA having MbP. )
Do you know whether that series 'Beverley Allitt Tapes' available on You tube? )

I read this earlier, and here are two who have actually researched medical killers:
Professor Yorker, who has studied more than 130 cases globally of health professionals who kill, says one motive, if not attention, "seemed to be... an act of covert violence or sadism" as the perpetrators found themselves in a position of power. .....She highlights the case of Richard Angelo, a nurse who was convicted of killing four patients and suspected of causing more deaths in New York in 1987. "When they arrested him... he admitted it. He said, 'I do it for the respect that I get from my nursing and doctor colleagues because I perform very well in a code' (cardiac arrest)..."I haven't read anything about Lucy Letby that indicates she wanted to be the centre of attention, that she enjoyed resuscitation of the infants. She seemed much more clandestine and deceitful. Kind of sadistic, maybe. ( Beatrice Yorker, a professor emerita of nursing and criminal justice and criminalistics at California State University in Los Angeles )

Dr Katherine Ramsland, an expert in serial killers who teaches forensic psychology at DeSales University in Pennsylvania, has seen both cases. "It's a mix," she says. "Some view healthcare agencies as places of trust where predators have advantages, others are worn down by the demands and decide to 'reduce' the workload or set someone up to make them look bad."

Some can also develop "a delusional belief that they're helping a patient", while others see "easy prey for things like theft or self-empowerment, or even thrill," she adds

Lucy Letby: Inside the mind of a serial killer - the psychology behind healthcare murderers

Former Countess of Chester hospital nurse Lucy Letby joins GP Harold Shipman and nurse Beverley Allitt on the list of UK healthcare professional serial killers. Here, Sky News speaks to psychologists about possible motivations for such horrific crimes.

news.sky.com

 

[Lucy6226]

I would not have waited 11 months. I would not have waited until hospital management did something. If I thought babies were being harmed I would have gone straight to the police and damn the consequences.

Yet here we are, as that is exactly what did happen.

I am hopeful for an enquiry into how the initial concerns were dealt with by management. How many babies potentially could have been saved if she had been suspended sooner.

MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Is there any really good podcast or comprehensive articles about this case? Everything I’ve found is sort of…plodding and repetitive.

Under UK automatic reporting restrictions, and where the verdict was only recently read and the defendant is being sentenced today, I think better information (not plodding/repeats) should be coming out soon.

Sky News and Daily Mail both produced podcasts of the daily trial. Unfortunately, they're not comparable to real-time reporting going back to the year of suspicious newborn deaths. I'm looking forward to a solid documentary.

 

[Lucy6226]

Those poor poor babies, I hope she rots in prison and actually serves the whole life order....and doesn't end it herself or by other inmates, I can't imagine her making many friends.

As a mum of twins who spent time in NICU I had complete trust in the nurses and would have never doubted their actions. I think LL has changed that for parents now, because the unthinkable has been proven possible. I can only imagine the pain the parents must continue to go through....the multiples not having their siblings grow up beside them breaks my heart and there will be long lasting impact on all the surviving babies well into adulthood I imagine.

Rest in peace babies, sorry you had to suffer at the hands of such evil

 

[JTS101]

I don't know, haven't been following the case since the outset but MbP is often comorbid with other personality disorders and I heard a crim psych refer to Beverley Allitt as ' untreatable psychopath' this week ( Alongside BA having MbP. )
Do you know whether that series 'Beverley Allitt Tapes' available on You tube? )

I read this earlier, and here are two who have actually researched medical killers:
Professor Yorker, who has studied more than 130 cases globally of health professionals who kill, says one motive, if not attention, "seemed to be... an act of covert violence or sadism" as the perpetrators found themselves in a position of power. .....She highlights the case of Richard Angelo, a nurse who was convicted of killing four patients and suspected of causing more deaths in New York in 1987. "When they arrested him... he admitted it. He said, 'I do it for the respect that I get from my nursing and doctor colleagues because I perform very well in a code' (cardiac arrest)..."I haven't read anything about Lucy Letby that indicates she wanted to be the centre of attention, that she enjoyed resuscitation of the infants. She seemed much more clandestine and deceitful. Kind of sadistic, maybe. ( Beatrice Yorker, a professor emerita of nursing and criminal justice and criminalistics at California State University in Los Angeles )

Dr Katherine Ramsland, an expert in serial killers who teaches forensic psychology at DeSales University in Pennsylvania, has seen both cases. "It's a mix," she says. "Some view healthcare agencies as places of trust where predators have advantages, others are worn down by the demands and decide to 'reduce' the workload or set someone up to make them look bad."

Some can also develop "a delusional belief that they're helping a patient", while others see "easy prey for things like theft or self-empowerment, or even thrill," she adds

Lucy Letby: Inside the mind of a serial killer - the psychology behind healthcare murderers

Former Countess of Chester hospital nurse Lucy Letby joins GP Harold Shipman and nurse Beverley Allitt on the list of UK healthcare professional serial killers. Here, Sky News speaks to psychologists about possible motivations for such horrific crimes.

news.sky.com

Thank you cottonweaver for those references and insights. It goes to show that the motivations are varied and are hard to explain. I'll certainly look up references that you have quoted from. To answer your other question, the Beverley Allitt Tapes are not on youtube but I have found a link to where they can be watched:

Watch The Beverley Allitt Tapes Online - Stream Full Episodes

Join in and start watching The Beverley Allitt Tapes instantly, with an entertainment membership on NOW. Stream live and on demand to your laptop, TV, iPad, iPhone and other devices.

www.nowtv.com

 

[Seattle1]

Lucy Letby: The judge's sentencing remarks in full

Trial judge Mr Justice James Goss delivered his sentencing remarks in front of TV cameras as serial baby killer nurse Lucy Letby was sentenced on…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

21 August 2023

Trial judge Mr Justice James Goss delivered his sentencing remarks in front of TV cameras as serial baby killer nurse Lucy Letby was sentenced on Monday, August 21.

Here are his sentencing remarks in full:
"The defendant, Lucy Letby, has refused to attend court for this sentence hearing. Accordingly, I have to sentence her in her absence. I shall deliver the sentencing remarks as if she was present to hear them and I direct that she is provided with a transcript of my remarks and copies of the victim personal statements read to the court.

"Lucy Letby, over a period of almost 13 months between June 2015 and June 2016, when in your mid-20s and employed as a neo-natal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital in Chester with specialist training in intensive care, you murdered seven babies and attempted to murder six others, in the case of one of them trying on separate occasions two weeks apart to murder her.

"You are now to be sentenced for your crimes. I order payment of the statutory surcharge in the appropriate amount.

"You acted in a way that was completely contrary to the normal human instincts of nurturing and caring for babies and in gross breach of the trust that all citizens place in those who work in the medical and caring professions.

"The babies you harmed were born prematurely and some were at risk of not surviving, but in each case you deliberately harmed them intending to kill them.


"In your evidence you said that 'hurting a baby is completely against everything that being a nurse is', as, indeed, it should be. You also claimed you never did anything that was meant to hurt a baby and only ever did your best to care for them.

"That was but one of the many lies you were found to have told in this case.

[..]

See the link for much more content.

 

[kittythehare]

trigger warning, petting baby sheep and goats in content

Inside the uni halls-style prison where Lucy Letby could be sent

The 33-year-old, who will be held in segregation at first to stop her being attacked by fellow inmates, is likely to be jailed in HMP Low Newton in Durham alongside Joanna Dennehy.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Seattle1]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=677905764226935

 

[Tortoise]

I do wonder - if there will be a future trial or trials - how much if any of the judge's sentencing remarks can be used in the way of character evidence. I know previous convictions can be used, but I'm not sure whether details from sentencing are divulged.

Characteristics such as lying, misleading, falsifying evidence, detachment, cruelty, callousness, blaming others, morbid fascination with victims and taking mementos, malevolence and sadism.