GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

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Parker Knoll said:
Another interesting article from The Times

Click to expand...
"An internal investigation into how the scandal was handled by managers was commissioned by former chief executive Susan Gilby, who joined the trust in 2018.

She believes it has been finished and should be published. “The explicit plan was for it to be published straight after the trial verdict, as I knew a government inquiry could take years. The families deserve to know the truth about what happened,” she said.

The Countess of Chester trust said the report needed legal checks and had not yet been finalised, adding it would want to discuss its publication with the new inquiry chairman first."


I'd love to see that report.
 
kittythehare said:
Bettere staffing may never have saved these babies' lives.
Better staffing would do nothing to curb a person who is hellbent on infanticide.
They would always find a way.
We can debate the shortcomings of the NHS and it's equivalent in every country in the world but we're not here to sort health crises.

It's a side issue.
She is already guilty of 7 murders, it's quite possible several more guilty verdicts are forthcoming when the investigation is complete.
Nobody knows why she liked to kill infants.
I really don't think I can stretch even a speculative notion that she did it in protest about conditions.

I'm almost sure that one won't run.

We are post verdict.

She did it.
A jury found her guilty.
Her guilt was not ascribed to less than optimal working conditions.
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Yup. 99.9999999% of NHS staff operate in same working conditions without feeling the need to murder anyone.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I don’t think she’s borderline. One might argue she displays a lack of emotion rather than extreme externalised and uncontrolled hysteria.
Click to expand...

I saw articles about overlap between BPD and other conditions but don't want to turn it into a scientific discussion, as we'll still be assuming and mostly, because nothing, no condition fully explains this case.
 
I found these links particularly interesting regarding 'infantile personality' - [bbm]

"The infantile personality is perhaps best encapsulated by Hill (1952):

... they're designated infantile personalities... [because] they do not exhibit regression but rather lack of progression (italics added)... the clinical picture is that of functioning like a child... Since he is not a child, there are some functions that are more highly developed... but the attitudes and aims remain that of an infant... Particularly impressive is the persistence of a dependent attitude and a fear of helpless needs—a need, ultimately, to be loved. There is little tolerance of frustration. Denial of his desires appears to the patient as a sign of lack of love.
Click to expand...

Millon (2011) expounded on the above, documenting this as a histrionic presentation seasoned with borderline characteristics he called the “infantile pleasuring personality type.” Millon summarized: [...]

A good analogy for those who have not encountered this presentation is to imagine a personality with simultaneous arrested development in middle school (histrionic) and the terrible two's (borderline)."

Why an Adult May Still Have an Infantile Personality

and

Variations of the Histrionic Personality - Personality Disorders :

"The Infantile Histrionic

The infantile histrionic, similar to Kernberg's (1967) infantile personality, represents a blend of the histrionic and borderline personalities. [...]

In the more primitively organized infantile histrionic, the expression of these characteristics is even more severe. Given their lack of identity formation, their attachment to significant others is highly dependent and demanding. Most constantly seek reassurance to maintain their stability and vacillate between overcompliance and profound depression when approval is not forthcoming. With no sense of self to buffer or modulate their basic drives, their emotions change quickly, easily, and unpredictably, running the gamut from intense love to intense rage to intense guilt, all of which may be expressed simultaneously. In more pleasant moments, they may behave with a childlike agreeableness or fascination but become sullen or pouty the next. Many complain that they are either unloved or treated unfairly, attitudes that quickly escalate into tantrums when anyone disagrees."

MOO
 
Nobody else think she’s a bit too quiet for anything like hysterical behaviour? Seems the opposite to me really, stone cold and frighteningly organised. Certainly not chaotic imo. Would place bets on something psychopathic. Very much calm, highly opportunistic, very bold, seemingly manipulative and very importantly more than willing to live at others expense. She did quite a good job of hiding any gains she got which presumably were emotional in nature. psychopath maybe? Far from a Normal one.
 
Commentary from one of the Drs who seems to write for Mail regularly ( Dr Max Pemberton)

'Medical colleagues in other countries are baffled by the power that NHS managers have.

They simply cannot believe that someone less qualified is able to override clinical decisions made by consultants or threaten, bully or intimidate them. In their jobs, such a thing is simply unheard of.'

Article is quite interesting. These themes of managers vs Drs and also nurses vs Drs you see can running through many of the other Inquiry reports into other Trusts.

OTOH this point about retaliation as a silencing tool, could probably be seen across many institutions, orgs and services :
'.....The patient could easily have died if he’d given in to the demands of the manager, yet — shockingly — he was still formally reprimanded for disobeying the manager despite him being absolutely correct in his clinical assessment.

I’ve had personal experience of this sort of treatment when, after my emails to managers went unanswered, I formally escalated concerns about the level of care being provided to patients in a service.
All of a sudden, the furious service manager descended and, rather than addressing the issues I’d raised, started to scrutinise my work — the implication being that I was a troublemaker and needed to be silenced.'

No wonder that some nurses and Drs feel there's no incentive to raise concerns when they have suspicions ( not suspicions of criminal wrongdoing )

www.dailymail.co.uk

Dr MAX PEMBERTON'S lesson from Letby

Dr MAX PEMBERTON: One of the many shocking things to come out of the case of nurse Lucy Letby is how it's exposed the extent to which managers have taken over so much of the NHS.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Nobody else think she’s a bit too quiet for anything like hysterical behaviour? Seems the opposite to me really, stone cold and frighteningly organised. Certainly not chaotic imo. Would place bets on something psychopathic. Very much calm, highly opportunistic, very bold, seemingly manipulative and very importantly more than willing to live at others expense. She did quite a good job of hiding any gains she got which presumably were emotional in nature. psychopath maybe? Far from a Normal one.
Click to expand...
The way I'm understanding it is the thing about infantile personality is that it's a subtype of histrionic, which means it doesn't fit the usual template, aspects will be somewhat adapted, and hidden IMO, because it's not okay for a 25/6 year old to have a tantrum a la 'terrible twos', her acting out will be the moments she expresses her rage and murders her patients, or her colleagues' patients, or has a meltdown, or cries. I think she has been described as pouty, her mouth turned down, in court, and been sketched like that by the court artist, and refusing to look at NJ. She has cried and tried to walk out when the doctor came to court, and we know she felt rejected by him from her notes. Clutching her blankie and toy.

She has been treated like a child in court, with her demands, IMO

JMO
 
cottonweaver said:
Commentary from one of the Drs who seems to write for Mail regularly ( Dr Max Pemberton)

'Medical colleagues in other countries are baffled by the power that NHS managers have.

They simply cannot believe that someone less qualified is able to override clinical decisions made by consultants or threaten, bully or intimidate them. In their jobs, such a thing is simply unheard of.'

Article is quite interesting. These themes of managers vs Drs and also nurses vs Drs you see can running through many of the other Inquiry reports into other Trusts.

OTOH this point about retaliation as a silencing tool, could probably be seen across many institutions, orgs and services :
'.....The patient could easily have died if he’d given in to the demands of the manager, yet — shockingly — he was still formally reprimanded for disobeying the manager despite him being absolutely correct in his clinical assessment.

I’ve had personal experience of this sort of treatment when, after my emails to managers went unanswered, I formally escalated concerns about the level of care being provided to patients in a service.
All of a sudden, the furious service manager descended and, rather than addressing the issues I’d raised, started to scrutinise my work — the implication being that I was a troublemaker and needed to be silenced.'

No wonder that some nurses and Drs feel there's no incentive to raise concerns when they have suspicions ( not suspicions of criminal wrongdoing )

www.dailymail.co.uk

Dr MAX PEMBERTON'S lesson from Letby

Dr MAX PEMBERTON: One of the many shocking things to come out of the case of nurse Lucy Letby is how it's exposed the extent to which managers have taken over so much of the NHS.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
Click to expand...
I think its an exaggeration to claim that managers overrule clinical decisions of consultants though they certain influence and control manpower levels and the ability deliver satisfactory levels of services.
The problem with consultants ( in general) is that they only see their own small sphere of clinical activity and resent any attempt to control it.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Nobody else think she’s a bit too quiet for anything like hysterical behaviour? Seems the opposite to me really, stone cold and frighteningly organised. Certainly not chaotic imo. Would place bets on something psychopathic. Very much calm, highly opportunistic, very bold, seemingly manipulative and very importantly more than willing to live at others expense. She did quite a good job of hiding any gains she got which presumably were emotional in nature. psychopath maybe? Far from a Normal one.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean. On the one hand she operated like a relentless terminator.
However some of the bolded features in that quotation on histrionic seem to fit, but it's difficult cause we don't have any F & Friends or old schoolmates giving us any info on volatility, vacillation.
Plus I've seen it posted many times on the thread that LL apparently flitted between pillars of support. Many of you seemed to think she was a fickle user type switching between colleagues. Apart from parents & Dr A (who dropped her) which ' significant others' does she cling permanently to at CoC? Was Janet Cox always her 'best friend' at CoC or is that more recent cause JC didn't testify at trial while Minna did testify? Significant others who are temporarily convenient? Was Karen Rees useful and is that why LL uses the love hearts after she's hauled off the ward? LL certainly seems to be good at identifying threats to her own criminality and exposure.
And if Dr A is one of the 'significant others' as per the quote, how come the texts we've seen aren't particularly demanding. Sometimes she can't respond to his compliments and she feels unable to tell him that she loves him.

OTOH ' arrested development' was one of the first casual quips I made. As per the quote on HPD, we can see she is massively oversensitive to any contradiction or perceived slight ( In texts) & we know she can express fury, love ( for protectors & enablers) and hate simultaneously, it's in the Post Its. So that trait seems to fit.

Am trying to recall which PD's the court appointed-prison psych found for Lori Vallow. Anybody recall? It was another mixed diagnosis & altho these two perps crimes are v different, LV & LL do seem to share a kind of detachment & self-control, ' cold and organised' as you said yourself.

Previous to that I recall the Depp- commissioned psych found histrionic ( adult) for Amber Heard as one of AH's pdisorders and it really fitted well.npd was another. You could also see evidence of when AH swings from acting-out to the other extremes of deep depression.

basically, it's all very complicated & that''ll be why even forensic psychs who work with the subject often can't agree on exact same diagnosis.
 
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Davieson said:
I think its an exaggeration to claim that managers overrule clinical decisions of consultants though they certain influence and control manpower levels and the ability deliver satisfactory levels of services.
The problem with consultants ( in general) is that they only see their own small sphere of clinical activity and resent any attempt to control it.
Click to expand...
when you read the whole article, did u feel that things like this do not happen?
This:
'I’ve seen consultants who are leading experts in their field have clinical decisions overturned by managers.

One friend, a surgeon, has had several vital, time-sensitive operations cancelled by managers — despite her warning that it will endanger lives — so that she could be redeployed to non-emergency clinics with long waiting lists'

PS According to Brearey & Jayaram, didn't this kinda happen in the LL case re their clinical judgements on patient safety? If you don't agree with that, what about this CoC example which we were discussing y'day
www.thetimes.co.uk

Damning email told of ‘chaos’ on Lucy Letby ward

A senior doctor warned that the neonatal unit where Lucy Letby worked was chaotic, overstretched and unsafe for patients and staff two years before the serial k
www.thetimes.co.uk www.thetimes.co.uk

'Dr Alison Timmis, a paediatrician, emailed Tony Chambers, the hospital’s chief executive, in December 2015....'
IIRC it took the managers almost 2 years to reduce the max capacity level of NNU
 
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cottonweaver said:
when you read the whole article, did u feel that things like this do not happen?
This:
'I’ve seen consultants who are leading experts in their field have clinical decisions overturned by managers.

One friend, a surgeon, has had several vital, time-sensitive operations cancelled by managers — despite her warning that it will endanger lives — so that she could be redeployed to non-emergency clinics with long waiting lists'
Click to expand...
Its never as clear cut as that. Any such decision would have been made in conjunction with a Clinical Director and maybe the head of Surgery, which is where there is conflict between the wide view and the narrow view.

IMO
 
Tortoise said:
The way I'm understanding it is the thing about infantile personality is that it's a subtype of histrionic, which means it doesn't fit the usual template, aspects will be somewhat adapted, and hidden IMO, because it's not okay for a 25/6 year old to have a tantrum a la 'terrible twos', her acting out will be the moments she expresses her rage and murders her patients, or her colleagues' patients, or has a meltdown, or cries. I think she has been described as pouty, her mouth turned down, in court, and been sketched like that by the court artist, and refusing to look at NJ. She has cried and tried to walk out when the doctor came to court, and we know she felt rejected by him from her notes. Clutching her blankie and toy.

She has been treated like a child in court, with her demands, IMO

JMO
Click to expand...

I get it but don’t see it myself. I can’t place someone having a tantrum with someone murdering babies as a way of venting. It’s an extreme that I cannot bring together. For all that inner explosiveness and it never really showed?

I do think she’s a bit of a madam and totally get the pouty bit. She’s my age and to think of a woman my age in court clutching a blanket and toy is a big no from me. I agree I do think she was mollycoddled. think it may have harmed her credibility as well. all In all I get massive and total “me me me” vibes from her, I really do. I might have asked her to show some respect for the situation and her own image and to not do something so infantile.

really do think she harmed her credibility. Who wants a child as a NNU nurse? No one. We want adults without a doubt.

following on from the me me me vibe. I can see hr having narcissism as a trait but kept quiet about it. I can totally see spite and envy playing a role here. I would certainly say I can see those feelings as motivation for something so heinous. Such a dangerous mix, perhaps nothing more dangerous. especically in a position of care. On the flip side it could simply be she’s using the babies to get at the parents with a total absence of care for them.
 
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