GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[Tortoise]

RSBM

She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.

She also used it in her text after the death of baby C -

Letby messaged the colleague: "Parents sat with [Child C] in the family room...persuaded them to have hand and footprints but they just wanted to go home."
The colleague responds: "That is so sad, don't know what to say."
Letby: "There are no words, it's been awful."
The colleague: "It's a really tough week, especially for you."

She writes 'there are no words' before writing many more words on the sympathy card, and before going on to fill every available space on a post-it note with words. It's interesting that she applies it to herself, as well as when discussing the loss of life. Maybe though, her post-it note started out as another message of sympathy for one of the babies, like she wrote for the triplets, and then turned into a personal rambling about her own situation.

 

[esther43]

She made reference to her childhood being very different if they had moved down south in her messages to Dr A. I often thought this was significant at the time

Yes, it's a strange thing to say really. How would life have turned out different? I'm assuming she's not talking about the seaside and coastal paths...

 

[Music2022]

Sudden deaths of three children 'at hospital where nurse was arrested' another one?

 

[DinerMite]

She writes 'there are no words' before writing many more words on the sympathy card, and before going on to fill every available space on a post-it note with words. It's interesting that she applies it to herself, as well as when discussing the loss of life. Maybe though, her post-it note started out as another message of sympathy for one of the babies, like she wrote for the triplets, and then turned into a personal rambling about her own situation.

I had initially written this on my previous post but deleted it in case I was verging into conspiracy territory but yes I wondered if the post-it was actually another draft. I thought possibly for Baby Q because she titles it "Not Good Enough" which is exactly what she says to Dr A.

Writing at 11.21pm on June 25, she says: 'We've lost 2 babies I was caring for and now this happened today. Makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'.

(Snipped)

Letby replies: 'Well, I sincerely hope I won't ever be needing a statement but thank you, I promise

On July 6th Dr A texts:
'There are going to be some recommendations based on staffing / kit but there was no criticism of either resus.'

He then shares an email confirming the deaths will go to an inquest.

---

To me this suggests the yellow post-it note was written shortly after following her fears. Maybe the draft was for Baby Q to try and 'calm' the situation similar to the report on the missing bung.

 

[Charlot123]

Tbh. I think while everyone finds what to do so obvious later... Our systems are just not set up for people like this. Neither are people really.

Like, even with suspicion, even with an increase in deaths... Running to the police with zero evidence and no management support to accuse a sweet normal competent young nurse of murdering babies is just a hell of a step.

I'd argue at that point a really reckless one. They went to managers repeatedly, but they didn't have anything to show them, other than a nurse known for picking up loads of shifts and was enthusiastic about helping the babies that needed the most care, was around at the time.

Like I'm not defending the inaction of the management, especially when more and more doctors voiced concerns, but this was just... Unthinkable. outlandish Especially when it was 'Nice Lucy' who didn't give any outward appearance that she was into baby serial killing.

Hindsight is 20/20. It was a busy hospital, incidents over multiple shifts. Very fragile patients with a certain amount of sudden declines to be expected. People point to the rash, but it would be much more reasonable to thing there could be something medical going wrong with care procedures than jumping to baby murdering nurse.

i am sure they will never forgive themselves, and I think everyone has their 20/20 glasses in.

To be fair, you are right. In hindsight, all is easy. There were probably mistakes made by everyone in the hospital, and the CEO would hear of them. That year was beyond stressful, and good or bad, CEOs of the trusts can't be blamed for decisions made way above them, in 2015, in Europe. So... if I were a CEO and just heard about a misplaced chest drain tube in a baby that collapsed on the NICU, and then one of the doctors came to me to say there was a potential killer on the unit, I'd probably feel very strange.

Random thoughts. Just re-reading the Sympathy Card -

Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift

"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."

NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"

So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.

She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.

I think it is an odd form of collections.

I know a person who collects shoeboxes. Bulky and time-consuming they are, and then someone advises them to make photos of the boxes instead. In short, I am positive that lots of stuff in Lucy's home would be death-related collections. These handover sheets, too. I think many of her behaviors are idiosyncratic interests- and OCD-based, and JMO, she is very ill. Only her illness is a huge danger to the community.

I am now thinking, is it possible that she collected stuff related to deaths in general? It might be not the killing, it might be what happened later. Giving the kid a bath, all these rituals, postcards. Resembles Victorian Era to me.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Surprised we haven’t had word from @magikarpmagikarp since the verdict, anything from herself?

The prosecution convinced me. I believe justice was done, and I hope all the families affected will eventually get closure. I don't have anything else to offer in terms of commentary but have been reading along daily.

 

[Charlot123]

Deleted

 

[Officer Dibble]

Random thoughts. Just re-reading the Sympathy Card -

Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift

"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."

NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"

So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.

She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.

Gave me a chill too. MOO

 

[DinerMite]

I think it is an odd form of collections.

I know a person who collects shoeboxes. Bulky and time-consuming they are, and then someone advises them to make photos of the boxes instead. In short, I am positive that lots of stuff in Lucy's home would be death-related collections. These handover sheets, too. I think many of her behaviors are idiosyncratic interests- and OCD-based, and JMO, she is very ill. Only her illness is a huge danger to the community.

I am now thinking, is it possible that she collected stuff related to deaths in general? It might be not the killing, it might be what happened later. Giving the kid a bath, all these rituals, postcards. Resembles Victorian Era to me.

I've always been careful in labelling it as OCD because it doesn't typically fit in my opinion.

The obsession is usually an intrusive thought or a "what if?" which leads to a compulsion to subdue the obsession, for example:
Obsession: What if I hit someone with my car on my way home?
Compulsion: Repeatedly driving back to the spot or checking news articles to ensure you didn't.

Rather than hoard (a type of OCD) handovers she seems to collect them which is typically in a more organised fashion compared to hoarding (note how certain babies handovers during the period were grouped together).

In my opinion it's not OCD. To me she collects them because they are of value to her, she keeps them because they are of purpose - not because something terrible will happen if she doesn't acquire them or keep them.

It's possible it started off that way: What if I accidently caused harm to a baby? I'll keep the handover to reassure myself I didn't. However to then actually start causing harm (committing to the intrusive thought rather than subdue it) goes against the typical nature of someone with OCD.

Obviously you could be correct but just my personal take on it

 

[cottonweaver]

I had initially written this on my previous post but deleted it in case I was verging into conspiracy territory but yes I wondered if the post-it was actually another draft. I thought possibly for Baby Q because she titles it "Not Good Enough" which is exactly what she says to Dr A.

Writing at 11.21pm on June 25, she says: 'We've lost 2 babies I was caring for and now this happened today. Makes you think 'am I missing something/good enough'.

(Snipped)

Letby replies: 'Well, I sincerely hope I won't ever be needing a statement but thank you, I promise

On July 6th Dr A texts:
'There are going to be some recommendations based on staffing / kit but there was no criticism of either resus.'

He then shares an email confirming the deaths will go to an inquest.

---

To me this suggests the yellow post-it note was written shortly after following her fears. Maybe the draft was for Baby Q to try and 'calm' the situation similar to the report on the missing bung.

she uses a similar phrase in Post It note 2 at this link

'we tried our best but it just wasn't good enough' ( to save your life)
( It's part of a - imo fake - 'sympathy' note for a child she has murdered. IDK which baby she's referring to but she says it's the child's birthday today and suggests not many will be thinking of the child but she is.
(No idea who she's trying to fake. Whether it's herself or she wrote this note to leave it laying around to be found by others, such as a parent or one of her stalwart supporters)

Anyway, I think it is a phrase she's picked up from the team. ( TBC, I mean that a nurse or Dr has used the phrase in the aftermath of a previous crash/death.)

The evidence seen during Lucy Letby's murder trial, from handwritten notes to cards for parents

The lengthy trial of the UK's most notorious child killer featured an enormous amount of detail, with the prosecution using handwritten notes, documents and even a sympathy card penned by Letby as evidence of her sinister presence on the Countess of Chester neonatal unit.

news.sky.com

 

[Charlot123]

L

I've always been careful in labelling it as OCD because it doesn't typically fit in my opinion.

The obsession is usually an intrusive thought or a "what if?" which leads to a compulsion to subdue the obsession, for example:
Obsession: What if I hit someone with my car on my way home?
Compulsion: Repeatedly driving back to the spot or checking news articles to ensure you didn't.

Rather than hoard (a type of OCD) handovers she seems to collect them which is typically in a more organised fashion compared to hoarding (note how certain babies handovers during the period were grouped together).

In my opinion it's not OCD. To me she collects them because they are of value to her, she keeps them because they are of purpose - not because something terrible will happen if she doesn't acquire them or keep them.

It's possible it started off that way: What if I accidently caused harm to a baby? I'll keep the handover to reassure myself I didn't. However to then actually start causing harm (committing to the intrusive thought rather than subdue it) goes against the typical nature of someone with OCD.

Obviously you could be correct but just my personal take on it

It is not OCD related to obsessions, compulsions or symmetry (the latter being a mixture of OCD and SPD, IMHO), but collections related to idiosyncrasies. It is sort of OCD, or maybe, the very tail of the condition that used to be called PDD NOS.

Have you ever dealt with collectors? I have, and it is a very obsessive group, although outside of their obsession, they are often surprisingly social and high-achieving. I wonder how many great museums we owe to some of these people, btw. But collections have two interesting traits, IMHO. They can be triggered by a tiny spark of interest, and the urge to acquire for own collection is pushed by someone else purchasing something for his own, or running into a collector's item that would look good in yours. Collections are dangerously close to hoarding, only they are usually kept well. So, "organized hoarding" they are.

I suspect it might be viewed as another form of "imaginary world".

I think LL's immense amounts of handover sheets, photos and notes, what helped so much to the case against her, was some form of "death collecting". Victorian Era, if you remember, was marked by strange obsession with death, including these lockets with hair and creepy postmortem photographs.

It just hit me today, what her prints of babies' feet and washing rituals remind me of.

I think we can find more. She liked hearts, are there two - four - six or three - five of them? Is there symmetry in their placement? Three on one side, one on the other? I think they started with bigger and ended with smaller ones, but won't be surprised if their placement had some pattern. Perhaps there was something about numbers in her killings/dates? We spoke about twins - maybe it is not so much about twins, as doubles? I am positive some patterns could be seen there.

 

[Charlot123]

Random thoughts. Just re-reading the Sympathy Card -

Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift

"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."

NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"

So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.

She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.

"Empty phrase she used to mimic empathy"

You think it could be an indication of masking?

(Not hinting at any specific diagnosis, it might be a form of speech used in some people who are not natural orators).

Masking (personality) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kemug]

^ How do you know that?

Not saying she wasn't but as far as I'm aware, Tigger and Smudge did not come up in either the defence or prosecution arguments.

And I know they didn't appear as character witnesses.

Perhaps they flatly refused to.

 

[Kemug]

Random thoughts. Just re-reading the Sympathy Card -

Letby says she wouldn't have written it on shift

"The card is written, it has been taken to work to hand over to a colleague who is going to the funeral."

NJ: "Why did you take a picture at the place where the child...died in dreadful circumstances?"

So LL had written the card at home, not sealed it in the envelope and then took it to work and photographed it in the place of death. Why wouldn't she have sealed the card at home? Why would she not have taken the photo at home once written? It was purposefully not sealed and purposefully taken where the death happened. Gave me a chill.

She also starts the Sympathy Card with "There are no words to make this time any easier" - There are no words also begins the infamous post-it note which I found curious too. Now knowing she is guilty it does make me wonder if this was just an empty phrase she often used to mimic empathy.

Maybe she "wouldn't have written it on shift" because, you know, it was always so so busy, not half as much time as she would have liked for texting.

 

[Telltale]

The prosecution convinced me. I believe justice was done, and I hope all the families affected will eventually get closure. I don't have anything else to offer in terms of commentary but have been reading along daily.

Tbh I get it. Part of me still finds it hard to believe.

Not because she's a nice young pretty nurse. Just because she's just so... Normal. They never seemed to dig up anything that looked like a red flag. Anything that suggested she'd got from nicu nurse to compulsory murder babies.

Usually people but drop a few even if only seen in hindsight the sort of personality traits that let you just do what she did tend to seep out.

Where's her escalation?

 

[Kemug]

This is imo the personality that fits her closest...I've always thought she attacked the babies when not getting her own way for various reasons

I do wonder, if her parents were to take an honest look back over her childhood and youth, if they might remember events such as things being lost, damaged, etc, when little Lucy didn't get her way. Just a thought.

 

[iamshadow21]

L

It is not OCD related to obsessions, compulsions or symmetry (the latter being a mixture of OCD and SPD, IMHO), but collections related to idiosyncrasies. It is sort of OCD, or maybe, the very tail of the condition that used to be called PDD NOS.

Have you ever dealt with collectors? I have, and it is a very obsessive group, although outside of their obsession, they are often surprisingly social and high-achieving. I wonder how many great museums we owe to some of these people, btw. But collections have two interesting traits, IMHO. They can be triggered by a tiny spark of interest, and the urge to acquire for own collection is pushed by someone else purchasing something for his own, or running into a collector's item that would look good in yours. Collections are dangerously close to hoarding, only they are usually kept well. So, "organized hoarding" they are.

I suspect it might be viewed as another form of "imaginary world".

I think LL's immense amounts of handover sheets, photos and notes, what helped so much to the case against her, was some form of "death collecting". Victorian Era, if you remember, was marked by strange obsession with death, including these lockets with hair and creepy postmortem photographs.

It just hit me today, what her prints of babies' feet and washing rituals remind me of.

I think we can find more. She liked hearts, are there two - four - six or three - five of them? Is there symmetry in their placement? Three on one side, one on the other? I think they started with bigger and ended with smaller ones, but won't be surprised if their placement had some pattern. Perhaps there was something about numbers in her killings/dates? We spoke about twins - maybe it is not so much about twins, as doubles? I am positive some patterns could be seen there.

I'd counter this with the fact that we do see collection behaviour in many serial offenders who are not diagnosed with OCD, SPD, or autism (PDD NOS is a retired term for a former subcategory of autism). It's entirely probable that Letby collects because she kills and harms others, and it's a touchstone to her being able to remember and relive those incidents, rather than it being indicative of a separate disorder.

MOO

 

[Kemug]

She made reference to her childhood being very different if they had moved down south in her messages to Dr A. I often thought this was significant at the time

We did hear talk of cousins, so perhaps if they had "moved down south" she would have been near her cousins, and not grown up as quite such an only child. Although it may have made no difference to her personality and crimes of course.

 

[IDK]

I realize it’s totally irrelevant at this point, but did ll have a driver’s license and a car, just curious. I don’t remember reading anything about it in the media and wonder how she travelled to visit her parents and go on outings with her friends, etc.

 

[cottonweaver]

I'd counter this with the fact that we do see collection behaviour in many serial offenders who are not diagnosed with OCD, SPD, or autism (PDD NOS is a retired term for a former subcategory of autism). It's entirely probable that Letby collects because she kills and harms others, and it's a touchstone to her being able to remember and relive those incidents, rather than it being indicative of a separate disorder.

MOO

and Jo Scott Morgan often talks of many SKs' need to 'memorialise' their victims ( He means eg the signature ways, often meticulously, that they treat the bodies and objects related to them. IDWant to get too graphic but he was comparing how some SKs do that, rather than eg toss their victims on side of a freeway)

ETA
on the other hand why keep precious mementos/trophies in shopping bags? Maybe for transporting somewhere safer and temporarily hidden out of view under the bed?