UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[marynnu]

I don't think most people would seek help for intrusive thoughts if they thought they could lose their career (or something else important, such as custody of their children) from admitting their thoughts or compulsions.

Much like all of the severe child abuse cases we see. Some from people who, according to others, were "good parents" at earlier times.

A lot of people who clearly need help never seek it. I think it's very common to try to just cope alone with mental health issues. JMO.

I agree. I had some terrible thoughts after my son was born (he was a relentless crying baby) but no way would I have shared this. Though I knew enough to realise this isn't uncommon and doesn't mean you're going to act on those thoughts, so I was lucky in that sense.

 

[Dotta]

If a person does not seek help, then we should not be surprised that tragedies happen.

What is the use of educating and training mental health specialists then?

Why do people deprive themselves of specialist help?

Besides doctors have to keep "doctor-patient confidentiality".

Whatever a person discloses to a doctor is CONFIDENTIAL.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

It would have been interesting to know “which” trainees too. Trainee doctors, nurses? Perhaps that’s what some of the ‘bitchiness’ was as was mentioned/heard in evidence. Surely there would have been things she would have overheard, gossip etc. It also reminds me of the doctor friend and the comment about faces that don’t fit (or words along those lines) also heard in evidence.

It’s strange the mention of ‘angel of death’ has now been reported and how bizarre some of LL messages were to her colleagues, it’s as though she’s checking to see who knows what- surely she must have known some of the things (even just whispers) being said. She even made a point of showing the text sent by her manager to her colleague about her confidence etc and the “not so positive comments being said about her” (also heard in evidence.) What exactly was being said?

I wonder, following on from the inquiry, whether we will get to hear more about what those comments actually *were*. If it was common knowledge that some of the trainees were referring to her with such a morbid title (angel of death)- even as tongue in cheek, over time as these incidents wracked up- eventually there would have been some kind of animosity in the team. There is that kind of fractious vibe throughout some of the messages/discussions presented in the evidence. How quickly she appears to flits/moves on between friendships/groups.

It was mentioned previously too in evidence how some of the staff (I think it was the higher band nurses) had concerns about her being allocated the more sicker babies- dispute her NNU training, as a band 5 nurse. We then hear about SE who LL seemed very bitter towards; almost catty, SE a newly qualified nurse who LL seemed to make a point of using her as a distraction for her own inadequacies.

There is some valid and strange friction amongst the team which we only got snippets of (perhaps due to reporting restrictions) during the trial. It appears there *was* talk among the unit and IMO LL knew that. Her then giving all sorts of strange diagnoses, reasons, all knowing, better than doctors and the wider team in her messages. It’s very odd how she could give such reasons for these poor babies incidents and deaths; and yet the doctors themselves could not explain it.

To me it sounds like young person banter. It’s such a revealing thing to learn of though When weighed against the sequence of events. It means she carried on doing it even when she knew the circulating rumours. I’m sure she knew, don’t have much reason to think it but I don’t see how it could be avoided.

that instance of her mentioning the not nice comments I’m sure revolves around that. It would prejudice the trial to include exactly what was said. Only a rumour at that point. Let’s hope we find out.

 

[marynnu]

If a person does not seek help, then we should not be surprised that tragedies happen.

What is the use of educating and training mental health specialists then?

Why do people deprive themselves of specialised help?

Besides doctors have to keep "doctor-patient confidentiality".

JMO

Doctors won't keep confidentiality if someone is at risk.

 

[Dotta]

Doctors won't keep confidentiality if someone is at risk.

Because doctors' task is to HELP a patient.
Some sick ppl have to be forced to start therapies.
For this person's, family's and society's sake.

 

[acutename]

Interesting thought Dotta. The words " I photographed that because it's nice to remember the kind things I've done' " is just a bit spooky.
I think she was very confused and possibly there was an absurd line between her "sense of duty" and her "sense of mastery"

I have not read everything about this case so apologies if I am missing some important factors. I find it odd that she just started killing when she was fully trained- so many other types of killers mistreat animals or do other destructive acts early on. I also keep thinking that as with fire starters, she some how wanted to threaten lives to see if she could save them but the whole "game" was a death spiral. IMO.

Is there any evidence that she interfered with some babies and they survived? Or was there only research into the deaths?

I am also curious if there was counseling or some kind of procedure for staff after a death. You know how they remove LE from regular duty right after a shooting? Knowing that there will be trauma. Is there any hospital procedure like that? It seems that she was just doing more shifts.

 

[Dotta]

"Ms Morris first noticed Letby's behaviour around Alvin, who had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, during his christening.

She said that Letby was constantly trying to touch him and lean over him during the christening.

Alvin's christening book also revealed a 'freaky' message left by the serial killer which read 'To Alvin, with love on your special day.' "

Chilling image shows Lucy Letby at the christening of baby who died

The photo - taken at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2013 - shows Emily Morris lifting her baby son Alvin out of a cot as Letby leans over to help.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This poor child

 

[Sweeper2000]

View attachment 444207

"Ms Morris first noticed Letby's behaviour around Alvin, who had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, during his christening.

She said that Letby was constantly trying to touch him and lean over him during the christening.

Alvin's christening book also revealed a 'freaky' message left by the serial killer which read 'To Alvin, with love on your special day.' "

Chilling image shows Lucy Letby at the christening of baby who died

The photo - taken at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2013 - shows Emily Morris lifting her baby son Alvin out of a cot as Letby leans over to help.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This poor child

Stepped out my door this morning. Saw a prison transport van and the first thing I thought. “Is the b…h in there, I’ll rip the door off”. most unlike me.

eta I wasn’t “serious sweeper” today.

 

[Officer Dibble]

It reminds me of this conversation about Baby I. We never found out why they suddenly decided nobody should have Baby I for more than one night... er.. I mean one shift

In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of October 14 if Child I was staying on the unit.

She added: “I’d like to keep her please.”

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: “Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping.”

An hour later the colleague messaged: “I’ve had to reallocate. Sorry.”

Letby said: “Has something happened?”

The colleague replied: “No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than 1 night at a time. Or 1 shift. Not just night.” Letby responded: “Yeah that’s understandable.”

The Crown says Letby, originally from Hereford, murdered Child I in the early hours of October 23.

It was said to be her fourth attempt to deliberately harm the baby after earlier bids on September 30, October 13 and 14.

Lucy Letby trial: Doctor saw ‘unusual’ mottling on baby

A DOCTOR recalled “unusual” skin mottling on a baby girl allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby, a jury heard.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Oh that is really eye opening (and horrible) to see it written out like that. JMO

 

[Officer Dibble]

Found it, so it's a different attack & different year ( mum on podcast is Feb 2016 ) but the same kind of irritation at not having access

@dotr posted this

''13 June 2015: Five days after Baby A's murder, and the day before she kills Baby C, Letby has an irritable exchange with a colleague over her manager's refusal to let her go back to work in intensive care.
She says when she worked at Liverpool Women's Hospital, she found she needed to go straight back and care for another baby "otherwise the image of the one you lost never goes".

The colleague disagrees, telling her to take a break:
Colleague: I agree with her don't think it will help. You need a break from full on ITU... It sounds very odd and I would be complete opposite.
[…]
Letby: Forget i said anything, I'll be fine, It's part of the job just don't feel like there is much team spirit tonight X
The conversation continues into the evening, until 23:09 when Letby signs off saying "Sleep well xx".
Six minutes later, Baby C falls critically ill.

Letby had been assigned to a child elsewhere in the unit, but that night she enters the nursery where Baby C is and feeds air into his stomach through a nasogastric tube, causing his collapse.''

Dotr's post from thread 33, has the full transcript where LL next goes whining to nurse Mary Griffith GUILTY - UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

6 minutes later?! Woah. So lack of control, being told no, leads to attack? MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

6 minutes later?! Woah. So lack of control, being told no, leads to attack? MOO

Assigned nurse nips out & also there's possibly resentment from LL to that nurse, blame might fall on assigned nurse not LL.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I don't suppose one can 'seek help' for this type of thing though? Maybe the same as other types of abusers, the abuse is so extreme and taboo and repulsive that no-one can speak to anyone about it even if they're having 'thoughts' I don't suppose.

I would like to know what LL googled in all her time of offending. Was she googling websites for psychological help or trying to understand what her sickness was?

What if we take her handwritten notes at face value - is this someone who was in part so horrified at what she was doing that she couldn't even get her head around it and it all came out in the notes? Maybe that's why she kept the notes and never destroyed them because maybe once she'd hidden them under the bed, she disconnected from even thinking about them and partitioned it off from herself? I don't really understand how these things work but it's possible those notes should be taken quite literally and therefore what they state is the only clues we have.

Did they check her computer and phone to see what she was searching for?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Well one of the arguments by those who thought she was innocent was "Ah but they've only concentrated on deaths that happened when LL was on duty... how many of the other deaths that year happened when LL was NOT on duty?" Well now we have our answer... none! They wrongly assumed that there were other deaths that she wasn't there for but no, she was on duty for every single death that year. Which also means there were no deaths when she was off shift or when she was on holiday either. I don't think the info would have worked in her favour at all.

I think I’ve just realised something about what i think actually must have been a very complex situation overall. So put yourself in the managers shoes. You have thirteen deaths on the unit which is five times the expected number. Then you have doctors coming to you and saying we think she has something to do with it. You kind of have to distinguish between what was murders/other and then deaths due to natural causes. You also have autopsy reports coming back without any pointers as to cause of death. i think you might be entitled to maybe look at the doctors who are overall responsible for Care and not necessarily think what they are saying is correct. you Have 13 deaths, 7 of which didn’t come back with much/any evidence of foul play/malpractice, so What do you do? Questions worthy of being asked I think.

im sure she isn’t going to be charged with other murders in 15/16. Would have happened already.

I am also genuinely interested to think what this new information would have meant within the trial.

excessive deaths not related to ll even with her there, excessive deaths maybe bolstering the defence claim of negligence because we never heard the actual number of them and we also know people in the hospital are willing to falsify notes ie the misreported deaths. We also don’t know the context of them ie causes of death. Brings me to my next point.

why was the information omitted in legal evidence?

I thought it most likely that they had clear medical reasons for not making it and so weren’t legally relevant? But I really don’t get why the actual number was omitted?
or is that mentioned very briefly by dr bohin when she says something like “clear medical reasons“ or something.

im not sure this actually changes anything or would. It’s just as easy to think she thought “if babies are dropping like flies, nobody will notice a few more. Maybe even it might make the hospital look bad and make my datix complaints more believable“.


eta. We know dr evans was handed around thirty case files and Some were ruled out so they must have been the other deaths right?

 

[Dotta]

"The image of Letby was emblazoned across an entire page in the 2012-2013 annual report for the Trust in Cheshire.

Ironically, the report boasts about the Trust being among just a few in the country which have achieved the highest levels of 'safe care'.

This was not the only time the killer was used as a poster girl for the NHS – in 2013 she appeared on material promoting the hospital's BabyGrow appeal raising funds for a new neonatal unit."

Lucy Letby's grin as hospital poster girl as she comforts a newborn

Smiling broadly in her blue nurses' uniform, convicted killer Lucy Letby leans over the baby in a Countess of Chester Hospital cot with her hand placed on its stomach.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

Get your hands off the baby

anyone else notice Lucy letby is a girl with a thousand smiles? It’s a like a different smile in every picture.

she’s worn that smile before.

 

[cottonweaver]

Dotta, re 'highest levels of safe care', can't find a full inspection report for any period close to 2012 but the report for 2015 ( looks at a full range of services) notes they have a shortage of paed consultants.

Imagine dismissing and threatening your own paed consultants and risking losing them when you have ....
'A shortage of a paediatric consultant was recorded on the divisional risk register on 21/10/15'

in the requires improvement section:
'

• Importantly, the trust must....Ensure staffing levels are maintained in accordance with national professional standards on the neonatal unit and paediatric ward.' ( Inspection visit to CoC done Feb 2016)
• The trust should ensure robust systems are in place to evaluate and improve their practice in respect of incidents and all investigations relating to the safety of the service

All inspections: The Countess of Chester Hospital - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

That is every picture she is smiling in because she isn’t smiling in this one.

 

[Seattle1]

View attachment 444207

"Ms Morris first noticed Letby's behaviour around Alvin, who had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, during his christening.

She said that Letby was constantly trying to touch him and lean over him during the christening.

Alvin's christening book also revealed a 'freaky' message left by the serial killer which read 'To Alvin, with love on your special day.' "

Chilling image shows Lucy Letby at the christening of baby who died

The photo - taken at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2013 - shows Emily Morris lifting her baby son Alvin out of a cot as Letby leans over to help.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This poor child

In 2013, Baby Morris, diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, was actually Christened at Countess of Chester Hospital-- which is not an unusual practice for vulnerable newborns and infants.

Baby's mother states LL was with her baby Alvin the night before in Room 3 (not the ICU) when Lucy Letby told us Alvin was deteriorating the night before he died. 'In the morning he was dead which is weird. It's like she was hinting that she did something. 'Alvin was a happy little chappy, always smiling. I think she's sick.'

However, I think it's important to note that LL was not qualified to work with infants who needed intensive care until 2015 when the suspicious incidents began (and since convicted of deaths and attempted murder that occurred between 2015 and 2016).

I also think LL's behavior at the hospital Christening was creepy but unlike the others, LL wasn't on shift when Baby Morris died in 2013. Police previously concluded in 2018 that there were no suspicious circumstances.

I could be wrong but I don't think Baby Alvin was one of her victims. But I do understand how any parent who lost a baby that was anywhere near LL would want to blame her. MOO

 

[CS2C]

I read yesterday that the start of the trial was delayed by one week due to Letby having some “issues” after moving prisons.
I don’t remember there being a delay or was there?

 

[marynnu]

I think it's important to note that LL was not qualified to work with infants who needed intensive care until 2015 when the suspicious incidents began (and since convicted of deaths and attempted murder that occurred between 2015 and 2016

How does this relate to Baby Alvin?