UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[cottonweaver]

related, in today's news MSN

'Nottingham maternity scandal victims have demanded police action against hospital leaders.

The families affected by the maternity care failings that led to the death and harm of hundreds of babies and mothers at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust (NUHT) have said they “expect action” to be taken against its former senior bosses.

The Nottingham Families Maternity Group met with the Nottinghamshire Police’s Chief Constable, Kate Meynell, to ask for a criminal investigation to be launched.

The hospital is currently undergoing an independent review led by Donna Ockenden, which began exactly one year ago today.

Ms Ockenden told The Telegraph that her team is now examining around 1,800 cases which is up from the 1,700 already planned and “will lead to an extension of the timeline” that will be confirmed as soon as possible. '

 

[Dotta]

Lucy Letby was asked to elaborate on why she’d written it. She said “I was blaming myself but not because I’d done something, because of the way people were making me feel”

She didn't say she hadn't done something, so this could be interpreted as she had done something but didn't blame herself due to this. She only blamed herself when other people called her out on it.

I read it as
"she did something, but didn't blame herself".
But blamed others for making her feel inadequate/angry thus triggering an attack.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

Maybe in some places, but if someone admits they have thoughts of harming their patients or children, doctors can warn others.

Yes. The Privacy Rule permits a health care provider to disclose necessary information about a patient to law enforcement, family members of the patient, or other persons, when the provider believes the patient presents a serious and imminent threat to self or others.Sep 12, 2017

Does HIPAA permit a doctor to contact a patient's family or law ...​

But it is obvious that a doctor should warn others.
Would you like to have tragedy on doctor's conscience?

There are some illnesses that must be treated even if a patient is against it.
Because otherwise, this person might harm oneself or others.

Have you heard of a pilot suffering from depression who killed his passengers by hitting a mountain with the plane?

His illness was not disclosed, and innocent ppl died.

Im not sure why it is sooooo difficult to understand

What is the problem???

But maybe the thing is we live in "different worlds" and cannot communicate.

What is obvious for me, seems not so for others.

"Cultural differences"

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I would imagine it was the defence who didn't want the jury to know that LL had been present at every single death in that one year period. It's not a good look for her!

Very good point. I agree.
And if she had not been on duty for all 13 of those deaths, she may not have been brought to trial at all, IMO.

It doesn't mean that there was no way she was involved in those other deaths. There would just need to be enough evidence of her involvement to bring charges.

I agree. They probably lacked the obvious circumstances seen in the charged cases----like the designated nurses asking LL to take over, just before the collapse. Or a colleague or parent seeing LL in the act, like a few of the charged cases.

I don't think it would have been a good thing for them to try her for 13 murders in that first trial. It would have been a 2 year torrent of evidence and if some cases were less obvious, it could have created reasonable doubt and jeopardised the entire case.

Also Dr Evans said there were two babies that were "born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses". LL's colleague also referred to there having been babies who weren't "compatible with life". If LL targeted those babies before their lives ended naturally, nobody would question those deaths and it'd be nigh on impossible to ever prove.

Agreed.
I am glad they didn't try and charge her with those cases because it could have put others in doubt and swing the momentum to NG.

Letby: "Hoping to get as much info together as possible -if they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly, not Me."

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I've always thought that text alone, made her seem guilty. >>>>'IF they have nothing or minimal on me?'

 

[marynnu]

>>>>'IF they have nothing or minimal on me?'

I agree, this struck me immediately as a very odd thing to say. Surely it would be 'when they find nothing'? if innocent. JMO.

 

[katydid23]

you see I’m not so sure. If she’s present at numerous deaths and they are not thought to be suspicious doesn’t that highlight that you can be around them and not be the cause as was mr Myers case? Association is not causation etc

No one said these deaths were not suspicious though. But suspicion alone does not mean one can be charged with murder.

Yeh I thought if you look at 5he sequence of events in the eyes of the police investigation, they might be somewhat limited in what they can present in what I am sure was the first of two maybe three trials. they’ve had so long to find their evidence though, I’d be genuinely surprised if they found anything more from that time frame. How many years of investigation now almost eight Years. Wow.

They can easily believe she was involved with all 13 deaths but still not be able to charge her with them. JMO

 

[Legal]

I've just remember as well, the condolence card she purportedly wrote on the triplets' birthday to all three of them, even though one survived! How can the people who support her explain that away??!!!

 

[katydid23]

But it is obvious that a doctor should warn others.
Would you like to have tragedy on doctor's conscience?

There are some illnesses that must be treated even if a patient is against it.
Because otherwise, this person might harm oneself or others.

Have you heard of a pilot suffering from depression who killed his passengers by hitting a mountain with the plane?

His illness was not disclosed, and innocent ppl died.

Im not sure why it is sooooo difficult to understand

What is the problem???

But maybe the thing is we live in "different worlds" and cannot communicate.

What is obvious for me, seems not so for others.

"Cultural differences"

JMO

OK, to clarify, I was replying to these statements you posted:

Besides doctors have to keep "doctor-patient confidentiality".

Whatever a person discloses to a doctor is CONFIDENTIAL.

Ok? So you said doctors have to keep it confidential, right? So I replied that doctors do not have to keep it secret, they in fact are responsible for sharing any dangerous information they receive.

So I don't understand your reply to me, saying :
But it is obvious that a doctor should warn others.
Would you like to have tragedy on doctor's conscience?

I think we have our wires crossed, Dotta.

 

[notsure]

I've just remember as well, the condolence card she purportedly wrote on the triplets' birthday to all three of them, even though one survived! How can the people who support her explain that away??!!!

Who are the people who support her? This forum is the only place I look at, and have never seen anyone support her here. Just people questioning the evidence presented, as the jury would.

 

[Tortoise]

What I'm extremely interested in is her saying she was the first in her family to go to university.

to police -
"Letby said she was the first person in the family to go to university and move away from home."
Accused nurse wrote note because `everything got on top of me´,...

in her evidence in chief -
"Mr Myers is asking Ms Letby about her background - she says she was the first in her family to go to university. "
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue


I tried to put myself in her shoes and imagine being arrested and interviewed by police on suspicion of multiple murders. I might think it relevant to tell them I'd been to university, but I cannot imagine thinking they would be at all interested or need to know about being the first in my family. And then being charged, and going on trial, and thinking it was in any way relevant to repeat this in court. It has no bearing on anything. But it's really important to her. To clarify - she is volunteering information that hasn't been asked, which always shows a need.

I think there is something peculiar to Letby that makes this really very relevant. I think there could be something like a generational/family issue, or shame, to do with being clever...or not. Being good enough.

IMO she felt really very clever indeed, excited, that no one could work out what was going on. She loved the superiority of knowledge over the doctors, and then the pathologists. I think she even despised doctor choc for not recognising what was going on, at some level, because she was fooling him too. So when he fizzled out, she was angry that she hadn't kept him fooled, she'd lost that small control she still had over him. Her notes about him show anger that he'd not stood by her, rather than a broken heart. She used him because he was promising to speak up for her.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

OK, to clarify, I was replying to these statements you posted:

Besides doctors have to keep "doctor-patient confidentiality".

Whatever a person discloses to a doctor is CONFIDENTIAL.

Ok? So you said doctors have to keep it confidential, right? So I replied that doctors do not have to keep it secret, they in fact are responsible for sharing any dangerous information they receive.

So I don't understand your reply to me, saying :
But it is obvious that a doctor should warn others.
Would you like to have tragedy on doctor's conscience?

I think we have our wires crossed, Dotta.

Confidential to some extent.
I was answering marynnu's post.

The discussion was about ppl avoiding mental health specialists in case somebody else might get to know about it.

So, if person's mental state is not harmful to others and a patient is willing to have a therapy - confidentiality is OK.

But, if a patient is a menace to oneself or others - confidentiality stops.

I hope ALL is clear now hahaha

Wires crossed??

 

[Legal]

Who are the people who support her? This forum is the only place I look at, and have never seen anyone support her here. Just people questioning the evidence presented, as the jury would.

There are certain people who for whatever reason are claiming she is innocent and setting up groups and funds to appeal her conviction. They post frequently on other sites, which I don't read, like reddit and fb and these supporters have been discussed at length on the LL thread on tattle. (not sure if I can mention these sites but will post and if needs be mods can delete). They seem fanatical and deranged!

 

[cottonweaver]

She also raises the same ' first t attend university' in one of her police interviews.
I can't find that transcript now but I remember it because it was the way she tried to use it as a get-out. As a kind of investment by her parents, who she couldn't possibly disappoint. It came across quite cynically deployed in that interview

ETA
Didn't realise part of that is in the first link .
I think Dad/Mum used the same lines in their calls/meetings with Tony Chambers. and it worked on him. ( Consider Tony's background, former nurse from Bolton. Snotty over-educated paed consultants who think they're better... blah blah.... scapegoating me )

'Asked why she wrote ‘I don’t deserve mum and dad’, she said: “I felt so guilty that they have to go through this, that I wasn’t good enough for them or any of them and it was all just becoming a big mess and I’d just be better off out of it for everybody.”

Letby said she was the first person in the family to go to university and move away from home.

She said her parents, John and Susan, were “disappointed” and “really, really upset” at her removal from the unit in July 2016.'

 

[notsure]

There are certain people who for whatever reason are claiming she is innocent and setting up groups and funds to appeal her conviction. They post frequently on other sites, which I don't read, like reddit and fb and these supporters have been discussed at length on the LL thread on tattle. (not sure if I can mention these sites but will post and if needs be mods can delete). They seem fanatical and deranged!

Thanks - and omg, really?

 

[Dotta]

Thanks - and omg, really?

Well
Ted B got married while in prison.
His wife even got a child by him.

 

[Tortoise]

She also raises the same ' first t attend university' in one of her police interviews.
I can't find that transcript now but I remember it because it was the way she tried to use it as a get-out. As a kind of investment by her parents, who she couldn't possibly disappoint. It came across quite cynically deployed in that interview

It's quoted in my post.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Very good point. I agree.
And if she had not been on duty for all 13 of those deaths, she may not have been brought to trial at all, IMO.

I agree. They probably lacked the obvious circumstances seen in the charged cases----like the designated nurses asking LL to take over, just before the collapse. Or a colleague or parent seeing LL in the act, like a few of the charged cases.

I don't think it would have been a good thing for them to try her for 13 murders in that first trial. It would have been a 2 year torrent of evidence and if some cases were less obvious, it could have created reasonable doubt and jeopardised the entire case.


Agreed.
I am glad they didn't try and charge her with those cases because it could have put others in doubt and swing the momentum to NG.


I've always thought that text alone, made her seem guilty. >>>>'IF they have nothing or minimal on me?'

Would the things you are describing be considered withholding information though? I don’t know but maybe when/if she appeals they might be able to say that or failing to provide context or something.

 

[Legal]

Thanks - and omg, really?

Lucy Letby supporters launch defence fund appeal for child killer nurse

Supporters of serial killer Lucy Letby have launched an appeal to fund her defence calling the nurse’s trial the “greatest miscarriage of justice that the UK has ever witnessed”.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[notsure]

Well
Ted B got married while in prison.
His wife even got a child by him.

I guess if you're looking for a penpal, someone in prison is a captive audience. Sorry.

 

[Tortoise]

Would the things you are describing be considered withholding information though? I don’t know but maybe when/if she appeals they might be able to say that or failing to provide context or something.

If they were still under police investigation I expect there was a ruling that they not be referred to by either side. Myers wouldn't be allowed to argue they weren't caused by Letby if there is a possibility of future charges, because it could prejudice the jury. IMO