UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[Sweeper2000]

What's interesting about the other six deaths is that they fill out the schedule of original charges, where there were gaps in the year.

So, the schedule of all 13 deaths looks like this -

Jun 2015 - 3 (A, C, D)
Jul to Oct 2015 - 4 (E, I + 2) (one of them, referred to in the media as baby M, in Sep)
Nov to Dec 2015 - 1
Jan to Feb 2016 - 2 (one could be K?)
Mar to Jun 2016 - 3 (O, P + 1)

How did you get the dates? I’m going out on a limb here but I’m wondering what could have prevented them bringing charges. I can’t think of anything more subtle than AE evidence wise. You really not think they have conclusions about them? Another point to think of is they did actually have the expected number of deaths with the clear medical causes and I think didn’t have that many more admissions than usual.

 

[Sweeper2000]

“and accept that the pm may not give any useful answers.”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, March 31

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

im wondering if this applies to the instances where we know the autopsy reports came back without the relevant information. Is it why they missed it with baby A etc?

 

[ColourPurple]

Re the extra death in March to June 2016. Do you remember the wording in one of the reports (may have been Chester Standard) when discussing O, P and Q where it made reference to another baby , who I think may have been crashing around the same time? I think the baby was mentioned in LL's and Doc Chocs texts but could be wrong. I didn't draw attention to it at the time because of sub judice rules.

In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately. I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because I arrived after the bleep. You didn't miss anything that I would expect an experienced itu trained nurse to spot. From a resus point of view you were flawless. It's why I am so happy to work with you. You don't flap, you give perfectly sensible suggestions and things run seamlessly.

RSBM
Thank you !! Yes that's the bit I was thinking of . So it does sound like she crash called Doc Choc for another baby who was crashing, around the same time. I wonder if it was her other designated baby, who she was with with Q collapsed. This line from Doc Choc could imply that, but presumably a different doctor would have responded to that crash as Doc Choc would've been with Baby Q?

LL: Ok. Was worried because I wasn't with him at time, but Mary was in room and Minna outside, I had [designated baby who was not Child Q] in 1. ITU because of uvc

Doc: You can't be with two babies in different nurseries at the same time, let alone predict when they're going to crash.

ETA , rereading it, this bit actually sounds like there could have been another two babies "another baby" and "a separate baby"

In fact for [another baby] you knew he was unwell and flagged it up immediately. I don't know the beginning of the [a separate baby] story because I arrived after the bleep.

 

[Tortoise]

How did you get the dates? I’m going out on a limb here but I’m wondering what could have prevented them bringing charges. I can’t think of anything more subtle than AE evidence wise. You really not think they have conclusions about them? Another point to think of is they did actually have the expected number of deaths with the clear medical causes and I think didn’t have that many more admissions than usual.

I got the dates from a combination of the BBC special (see below) and this article Staffing 'inadequate' at Chester baby death hospital reporting eight deaths in 2015 and five in 2016 -

The first three babies died in June 2015. The executive team held a meeting at which it was agreed that an external investigation into the deaths would be held. It never happened.

By October, with seven babies now dead, a staff analysis of the incidents made a link between all the deaths and Lucy Letby being on shift, but it was still seen as coincidental.

In February 2016 with 10 babies now dead, the Director of Nursing, Alison Kelly, and Ian Harvey, the Medical Director, were asked for an urgent meeting to discuss the deaths and Lucy Letby’s links to all of them. They didn’t respond for three months.

In June 2016, two babies died on consecutive days. 13 children had now died. Lucy Letby was on shift for all of them.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It’s actually beyond shocking if it comes back in he future that these Other deaths were foul play.

if I call the Cheshire police and ask them if they have ruled out fair play in these other cases, are they allowed to answer ?

 

[Tortoise]

‘Lucy Letby could have killed our babies’:

The little girl, described only as M at the parents’ request, was born at just over 40 weeks after a healthy pregnancy. Her mother said the delivery did not go to plan and her daughter was born during an emergency Caesarean on Sept 2 2015.

However, doctors were concerned that the baby could pick up an infection and moved her to an incubator in the neonatal unit to be treated with antibiotics and monitored.

Soon, they said the baby was “already improving”. But in the early hours of Sept 4, staff woke the mother in the middle of the night to inform her that her baby had become seriously unwell. She walked into the unit to see doctors attempting resuscitation, but the baby died.

The mother said that the first post-mortem examination results showed nothing, but a second carried out by a hospital in Liverpool found the infant had a rare heart defect and lung failure.

Two more mothers think Lucy Letby killed their babies :

'I cannot say for certain if she is responsible, but the entire situation always seemed weird to me because the entire pregnancy was fine and no one said anything was wrong with my daughter,' the mother said.

My existing timeline with baby M's death added -


3 Sep 2015, Thu


8pm – LL’s night shift (first night shift since baby F’s insulin poisoning on 5th Aug)

4 Sep 2015, Fri

Early hours - baby M died.

8am – LL’s shift finishes


8pm – LL’s night shift

5 Sep 2015, Sat

8am – LL’s shift finishes



8pm – LL’s night shift

6 Sep 2015, Sun

8am – LL’s shift finishes


8pm – LL’s night shift – (LL room 1, not designated nurse for G in room 2)

7 Sep 2015, Mon

2.30am - Baby G - 1st attempted murder. (Overfed milk and air, and blood was visible in her throat)

8am – end of LL’s night shift.

10am – LL clocked off.

1.33pm –

JJ-K: "How you doing x”

LL: "Had rubbish nights. x"

JJ-K: "Yeah gathered. x"

LL: "Thought someone would have told you x. Nothing else to say really, just hope they are both ok"

JJ-K: "Don't know ins and outs as tried to avoid it, needed a break. Found Thursday horrendous, not really slept since then. Hope you're ok"

LL: "That is understandable, won't tell you anything."

The conversation turned to LL asking which of the team had informed JJ-K about the events of the night-shift for Sept 6-7. After a few guesses, the name 'Ali', in the messages, is said to be correct.

JJ-K: "Ali. She not having a good time x"

LL: "No, I know. It's been awful for her but she's coped with it brilliantly and got back-up when needed etc x"

JJ-K: "Yeah I don't know how she's done it. She was fab on Thursday."


(Note also LL saying 'hope they are both ok' - which means there was a further baby in difficulty, not just baby G.)

 

[Tortoise]

I’m going out on a limb here but I’m wondering what could have prevented them bringing charges. I can’t think of anything more subtle than AE evidence wise. You really not think they have conclusions about them? Another point to think of is they did actually have the expected number of deaths with the clear medical causes and I think didn’t have that many more admissions than usual.

It's a possibility that she didn't leave a trace - wasn't designated, didn't get involved in the resus, didn't make any notes/cook the books, simply sneaked around quickly without drawing any attention to herself. Look how difficult it was for the jury to decide with some of the babies when there were patterns such as parents just leaving the nursery, doctors being told about non-existent deteriorations, Facebook searches, texts to her mates explaining what happened.

She was mixing up her methods and trying not to be obvious, IMO. If she picked babies who had vulnerabilities that could have masked her involvement. I'm sure she was using handover sheets to do her prep.

If it was one or two that would be in line with expectations, but another SIX unexpected deaths?

 

[ColourPurple]

‘Lucy Letby could have killed our babies’:


Two more mothers think Lucy Letby killed their babies :




My existing timeline with baby M's death added -


3 Sep 2015, Thu


8pm – LL’s night shift (first night shift since baby F’s insulin poisoning on 5th Aug)

4 Sep 2015, Fri

Early hours - baby M died.

8am – LL’s shift finishes


8pm – LL’s night shift

5 Sep 2015, Sat

8am – LL’s shift finishes



8pm – LL’s night shift

6 Sep 2015, Sun

8am – LL’s shift finishes


8pm – LL’s night shift – (LL room 1, not designated nurse for G in room 2)

7 Sep 2015, Mon

2.30am - Baby G - 1st attempted murder. (Overfed milk and air, and blood was visible in her throat)

8am – end of LL’s night shift.

10am – LL clocked off.

1.33pm –

JJ-K: "How you doing x”

LL: "Had rubbish nights. x"

JJ-K: "Yeah gathered. x"

LL: "Thought someone would have told you x. Nothing else to say really, just hope they are both ok"

JJ-K: "Don't know ins and outs as tried to avoid it, needed a break. Found Thursday horrendous, not really slept since then. Hope you're ok"

LL: "That is understandable, won't tell you anything."

The conversation turned to LL asking which of the team had informed JJ-K about the events of the night-shift for Sept 6-7. After a few guesses, the name 'Ali', in the messages, is said to be correct.

JJ-K: "Ali. She not having a good time x"

LL: "No, I know. It's been awful for her but she's coped with it brilliantly and got back-up when needed etc x"

JJ-K: "Yeah I don't know how she's done it. She was fab on Thursday."


(Note also LL saying 'hope they are both ok' - which means there was a further baby in difficulty, not just baby G.)

Ah so the Thursday they're referring to where Ali was fab was the Thursday nightshift that LL worked that spanned Thursday 3rd- Fri 4th Sept and Baby girl M(from Lithuania) died in the early hours of Fri 4th. And presumably Ali is Ali Ventress. So we could be looking at another situation where a baby crashed (and died) while LL was on shift and LL's friend Dr Ventress was the one who responded to the crash call. Unless something else happened on that Thursday evening?

Before Doc Choc was on the scene, how many of the earlier crash calls in the case went to Dr Ventress?

 

[Tortoise]

Ah so the Thursday they're referring to where Ali was fab was the Thursday ightshift that LL worked that spanned Thursday 3rd- Fri 4th Sept and Baby girl M(from Lithuania) died in the early hours of Fri 4th. And presumably Ali is Ali Ventress. So we could be looking at another situation where a baby crashed (and died) while LL was on shift and LL's friend Dr Ventress was the one who responded to the crash call. Unless something else happened on that Thursday evening?

Before Doc Choc was on the scene, how many of the earlier crash calls in the case went to Dr Ventress?

I think Dr V was on for babies G, H and I

 

[ColourPurple]

I think Dr V was on for babies G, H and I

Wow so baby Girl M would have been between babies F and G which would've given a run of 4 crash calls all going to Dr V. I wonder if any particular doctor responded to the crash calls before that run.

 

[katydid23]

Wow so baby Girl M would have been between babies F and G which would've given a run of 4 crash calls all going to Dr V. I wonder if any particular doctor responded to the crash calls before that run.

I wonder what Dr V thinks of LL now?

 

[Tortoise]

Wow so baby Girl M would have been between babies F and G which would've given a run of 4 crash calls all going to Dr V. I wonder if any particular doctor responded to the crash calls before that run.

Dr Harkness was on for babies A and E. LL was searching his Facebook too, after baby A. I think he needed time off after baby A's death.

 

[ColourPurple]

Dr Harkness was on for babies A and E. LL was searching his Facebook too, after baby A. I think he needed time off after baby A's death.

And there was a mention of Huw Mayberry at one point too, so presumably Huw had responded to at least one crash call too as she said this

Letby adds she feels "most at home with ITU [intensive treatment unit] and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."

The doctor [Doc Choc] replies: "...I like it when you're in itu - everything feels safe and well organised..."

Letby: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."


In fact reading that "see what happens tomorrow". I think this exchange took place on 22nd June 2016, when she'd just got back from her hols so what happened "tomorrow" was that she killed Baby O!

More detail:

The doctor [Doc Choc] Facebook messages Letby on Wednesday, June 22 at 5.13pm: 'How was the flight?...Day has been rubbish. Lots of unnecessary stress for nnu and too much work to fit into one day. I may have (over)filled the unit again..."

Letby: "...Oh that's not good back to earth with a bump for me tomorrow then!..."

Doctor: "...Yes, you might be a bit busy..."
..
Letby messages the doctor 'Yep just got a few bits for lunch (although maybe I won't have time to eat).

The doctor replies he wasn't sure he'd eaten apart from a cereal bar before the triplets arrived.

Letby asks: "What gestation are the trips? I don't mind being busy anyway..."

Doctor: "33+5 [weeks gestation]. 3x Optiflo..."

After more messages, the doctor asks Letby if she has any choice where she is working.

Letby: "No, not with this new handover. Shift leader of night shift allocates for the day shift and vice versa. If your on a run of shifts you tend to stay with same babies."

Letby adds due to the skillsets, she tends to work in nursery room 1.

Letby adds she feels "most at home with ITU [intensive treatment unit] and the girls know that Im quite happy to be in 1 so works out well most of the time."

The doctor replies: "...I like it when you're in itu - everything feels safe and well organised..."

Letby: "Awe that's nice to hear, Huw often says that too - see what happens tomorrow."

Letby adds there is a potential job opening on the unit which she believes she might be lined up for.

The doctor: 'If you didn't want it now, could you defer?'

Letby: 'Yes good to know and worth thinking about...& yes, I'm sure she would let me defer.'

Nurse Sophie Ellis records, on the night shift for Child O, in a note written at 2.19am on June 23: '[incubator] temperature reduced due to temperature of 37.3C - to check hourly as appropriate. All other observations stable. Pink, warm and well perfused....abdo full but soft.'

A note at 6.41am recorded a TPN nutrition bag was stopped as Child O had reached full feeds of donor expressed breast milk, and was 'tolerating well'.

At 7.32am 'abdo loos full slightly loopy. Appeared uncomfortable after feed.'

Child O was checked and settled.

The day shift begins at 7.30am. During this shift, Child O died.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

it's baffling ... she must've thought everyone surrounding her was stupid?

Definitely not considering the bigger picture. In this aspect it reminds me of if (god forbid) you've ever had a serious addict in your family or friendship circle that is stealing valuables from your home every time they visit. You don't see them do it, you can't prove it, but steadily over time it's a sure fact that one by one items of value from around your home have been taken and are never found, it becomes obvious what's happening.

Then you would wonder, is this person stupid do they not realise we're going to notice? But that's not how they're thinking, they're in a different way of processing and being. And they *defy* you to call them out and always deny it no matter what.

 

[Kemug]

"The first in my family to go to university" - I just realised that's me!! Oh me oh my, aren't I just so special and amazing?!

 

[Dotta]

It is mind blowing to read latest reports, latest suspicions of other parents of possible victims of this maniac.

My God, how many other children were murdered?
How many left brain damaged or with other health problems?

Will the list be ever finished?
Did this murderer attack patients every single day working as a nurse?

I have never ever heard about such a horrendous case in my life

 

[Kemug]

These babies where LL was asked to be a godmother - that would have given her future access to the little ones. Scary.

 

[Sweeper2000]

"The first in my family to go to university" - I just realised that's me!! Oh me oh my, aren't I just so amazing?!

We all think so.

 

[Parker Knoll]

This case is utterly insane on every single level.

 

[Kemug]

We all think so.

Why, thank you! (smirk, smirk, blush, blush)