UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

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Something I noticed when the mug shot was released - has she had a cosmetic procedure? She had noticible bags under her eyes which are not apparent in the police photo.
If we are talking about appearance ;)
I noticed she has underbite.
It is noticeable but only in some photos.

But she is quite photogenic.
 
I think I’ve just realised something about what i think actually must have been a very complex situation overall. So put yourself in the managers shoes. You have thirteen deaths on the unit which is five times the expected number. Then you have doctors coming to you and saying we think she has something to do with it. You kind of have to distinguish between what was murders/other and then deaths due to natural causes. You also have autopsy reports coming back without any pointers as to cause of death. i think you might be entitled to maybe look at the doctors who are overall responsible for Care and not necessarily think what they are saying is correct. you Have 13 deaths, 7 of which didn’t come back with much/any evidence of foul play/malpractice, so What do you do? Questions worthy of being asked I think.

im sure she isn’t going to be charged with other murders in 15/16. Would have happened already.

I am also genuinely interested to think what this new information would have meant within the trial.

excessive deaths not related to ll even with her there, excessive deaths maybe bolstering the defence claim of negligence because we never heard the actual number of them and we also know people in the hospital are willing to falsify notes ie the misreported deaths. We also don’t know the context of them ie causes of death. Brings me to my next point.

why was the information omitted in legal evidence?

I thought it most likely that they had clear medical reasons for not making it and so weren’t legally relevant? But I really don’t get why the actual number was omitted?
or is that mentioned very briefly by dr bohin when she says something like “clear medical reasons“ or something.

im not sure this actually changes anything or would. It’s just as easy to think she thought “if babies are dropping like flies, nobody will notice a few more. Maybe even it might make the hospital look bad and make my datix complaints more believable“.


eta. We know dr evans was handed around thirty case files and Some were ruled out so they must have been the other deaths right?
I would imagine it was the defence who didn't want the jury to know that LL had been present at every single death in that one year period. It's not a good look for her! It doesn't mean that there was no way she was involved in those other deaths. There would just need to be enough evidence of her involvement to bring charges.

Also Dr Evans said there were two babies that were "born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses". LL's colleague also referred to there having been babies who weren't "compatible with life". If LL targeted those babies before their lives ended naturally, nobody would question those deaths and it'd be nigh on impossible to ever prove.

We know that this baby died during the 2015-16 timeframe and police were investigating her death but ultimately didn't bring any charges. Whether this is one of the two babies Dr Evans said had been born in unsurvivable conditions (with an undiagnosed rare heart defect) is not clear. But if she was, it's possible that she had an undiagnosed rare heart defect (unknown to LL or anyone else) that would have eventually killed her AND that LL killed her before the defect had chance to kill her.

A second mother whose two-day-old baby died on the unit in 2015 has also called for detectives to re-examine her daughter’s case. Police investigating Letby contacted the couple in 2017, but the investigation did not progress. But the baby’s father said he recognised Letby’s face during coverage of the trial, fuelling their concerns that she could have been involved.

The little girl, described only as M at the parents’ request, was born at just over 40 weeks after a healthy pregnancy. Her mother said the delivery did not go to plan and her daughter was born during an emergency Caesarean on Sept 2 2015. However, doctors were concerned that the baby could pick up an infection and moved her to an incubator in the neonatal unit to be treated with antibiotics and monitored.

Soon, they said the baby was “already improving”. But in the early hours of Sept 4, staff woke the mother in the middle of the night to inform her that her baby had become seriously unwell. She walked into the unit to see doctors attempting resuscitation, but the baby died.

The mother said that the first post-mortem examination results showed nothing, but a second carried out by a hospital in Liverpool found the infant had a rare heart defect and lung failure. During the trial, the jury heard how some of the babies Letby has now been convicted of harming had damage to their heart or lungs. The mother also said she had noticed “dark spots” on her daughter’s chest, another symptom the court was told emerged on many of Letby’s victims...

In 2017, a police officer contacted her about the death of her daughter. “He told us that there were suspicions, that this and that could have happened to your baby,” she said. The mother recalls how the officer said they were investigating a nurse, and that “there were many similar events, namely related to the heart and lungs”, prompting suspicion over her daughter. Following this, the couple returned to Lithuania and, while they received several emails from a second officer, “nobody contacted us again”.




ETA link to LL's colleague mention babies not compatible with life:

The same day, Letby messages her nursing colleague: "I've done a timeline of this year."

The colleague responds: "Fab. And how quite a few babies weren't compatable with life anyway. I wonder if midwives get this with amount of stillbirths......"

Letby: "Yeah and some went off within hours/on handover.

"Or were already acutely unwell when I took over.

"And put that when Baby Q went off No other staff able to care for him etc (name of Baby Q redacted)."

The colleague responds: "Not like all behaving fantastically till right into shift."


Letby: "Hoping to get as much info together as possible -if they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly, not Me."

 
Last edited:
How does this relate to Baby Alvin?
It was the NICU where LL perfected her baby-killing methods-- the unit LL was not yet certified to work in 2013 when Baby Alvin died. (We don't know where baby Alvin died but since he's been identified by his parents, perhaps more details about his health and death will be released).
 
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I would imagine it was the defence who didn't want the jury to know that LL had been present at every single death in that one year period. It's not a good look for her! It doesn't mean that there was no way she was involved in those other deaths. There would just need to be enough evidence of her involvement to bring charges.

Also Dr Evans said there were two babies that were were two babies were "born in unsurvivable conditions, with obvious medical diagnoses". LL's colleague also referred to there having been babies who weren't "compatible with life". If LL targeted those babies before their lives ended naturally, nobody would question those deaths and it'd be nigh on impossible to ever prove.

We know that this baby died during the 2015-16 timeframe and police were investigating her death but ultimately didn't bring any charges. Whether this is one of the two babies Dr Evans said had been born in unsurvivable conditions (with an undiagnosed rare heart defect) is not clear. But if she was, it's possible that she had an undiagnosed rare heart defect (unknown to LL or anyone else) that would have eventually killed her AND that LL killed her before the defect had chance to kill her.

A second mother whose two-day-old baby died on the unit in 2015 has also called for detectives to re-examine her daughter’s case. Police investigating Letby contacted the couple in 2017, but the investigation did not progress. But the baby’s father said he recognised Letby’s face during coverage of the trial, fuelling their concerns that she could have been involved.

The little girl, described only as M at the parents’ request, was born at just over 40 weeks after a healthy pregnancy. Her mother said the delivery did not go to plan and her daughter was born during an emergency Caesarean on Sept 2 2015. However, doctors were concerned that the baby could pick up an infection and moved her to an incubator in the neonatal unit to be treated with antibiotics and monitored.

Soon, they said the baby was “already improving”. But in the early hours of Sept 4, staff woke the mother in the middle of the night to inform her that her baby had become seriously unwell. She walked into the unit to see doctors attempting resuscitation, but the baby died.

The mother said that the first post-mortem examination results showed nothing, but a second carried out by a hospital in Liverpool found the infant had a rare heart defect and lung failure. During the trial, the jury heard how some of the babies Letby has now been convicted of harming had damage to their heart or lungs. The mother also said she had noticed “dark spots” on her daughter’s chest, another symptom the court was told emerged on many of Letby’s victims...

In 2017, a police officer contacted her about the death of her daughter. “He told us that there were suspicions, that this and that could have happened to your baby,” she said. The mother recalls how the officer said they were investigating a nurse, and that “there were many similar events, namely related to the heart and lungs”, prompting suspicion over her daughter. Following this, the couple returned to Lithuania and, while they received several emails from a second officer, “nobody contacted us again”.




ETA link to LL's colleague mention babies not compatible with life:

The same day, Letby messages her nursing colleague: "I've done a timeline of this year."

The colleague responds: "Fab. And how quite a few babies weren't compatable with life anyway. I wonder if midwives get this with amount of stillbirths......"

Letby: "Yeah and some went off within hours/on handover.

"Or were already acutely unwell when I took over.

"And put that when Baby Q went off No other staff able to care for him etc (name of Baby Q redacted)."

The colleague responds: "Not like all behaving fantastically till right into shift."


Letby: "Hoping to get as much info together as possible -if they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly, not Me."

you see I’m not so sure. If she’s present at numerous deaths and they are not thought to be suspicious doesn’t that highlight that you can be around them and not be the cause as was mr Myers case? Association is not causation etc

Yeh I thought if you look at 5he sequence of events in the eyes of the police investigation, they might be somewhat limited in what they can present in what I am sure was the first of two maybe three trials. they’ve had so long to find their evidence though, I’d be genuinely surprised if they found anything more from that time frame. How many years of investigation now almost eight Years. Wow.
 
It was the NICU where LL perfected her baby-killing methods-- the unit LL was not yet certified to work in 2013 when Baby Alvin died. (We don't know where baby Alvin died but since he's been identified by his parents, perhaps more details about his health and death will be released).
The article states which nursery he was in.

'He was in Room 3 which is where you go if you're going home soon. So why was he there?'

 
I don't suppose one can 'seek help' for this type of thing though? Maybe the same as other types of abusers, the abuse is so extreme and taboo and repulsive that no-one can speak to anyone about it even if they're having 'thoughts' I don't suppose.

I would like to know what LL googled in all her time of offending. Was she googling websites for psychological help or trying to understand what her sickness was?

What if we take her handwritten notes at face value - is this someone who was in part so horrified at what she was doing that she couldn't even get her head around it and it all came out in the notes? Maybe that's why she kept the notes and never destroyed them because maybe once she'd hidden them under the bed, she disconnected from even thinking about them and partitioned it off from herself? I don't really understand how these things work but it's possible those notes should be taken quite literally and therefore what they state is the only clues we have.

I read a book about Dennis Nilsen which claimed that on one occasion a sliver of his mind opened and he saw the absolute horror of the crimes he had committed, but the truth was too much for him, so he simply closed that part of his mind forever.
 
It was the NICU where LL perfected her baby-killing methods-- the unit LL was not yet certified to work in 2013 when Baby Alvin died. (We don't know where baby Alvin died but since he's been identified by his parents, perhaps more details about his health and death will be released).
It was all in the same ward, just a different room . The sickest babies were in room 1, which was also the room where nurses would go to get drugs for other babies apparently (according to LL). Also on the night LL murdered Baby C, Sophie Ellis, a nurse who was less qualified than LL was looking after him in room 1, as she had support from a more senior nurse if needed. So I assume LL had been allowed to work in room 1 in the same way, before her latest qualification too.
 
It was the NICU where LL perfected her baby-killing methods-- the unit LL was not yet certified to work in 2013 when Baby Alvin died. (We don't know where baby Alvin died but since he's been identified by his parents, perhaps more details about his health and death will be released).

There was no separate NICU. She would have worked in any room both before & after her course.
 
She'd already given her explanations to police and in her evidence in chief. There is a lot to be said for letting her absurd answers just speak for themselves and lay on record, and for respecting jurors' common sense. The note aligned with the Crown's case that she killed them on purpose, so NJ didn't need more of her twisting it. He demonstrated that she was not isolated from her friends and her own counsel BM somewhat bizarrely elicited the same information from her.

Police Interviews

Transcripts of the interviews are being read out to the court. A prosecution barrister is reading the police questions. A female detective is in the witness box, reading the responses from Lucy Letby.

When she was first arrested in July 2018 Lucy Letby was asked about this note which police found inside a diary in her bedroom. It contains phrases including “I am evil, I did this” and “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough”

Lucy Letby was asked to elaborate on why she’d written it. She said “I was blaming myself but not because I’d done something, because of the way people were making me feel” Also, “I just felt it was it was all just spiralling out of control"

Police question: "Why did you write 'I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them. I am a horrible evil person'?
LL answer“I didn’t kill them on purpose, I felt if my practice hadn’t been right then I had killed them and that was why I wasn’t good enough"

Police: "Why did you write: “I am evil. I did this?"
LL: “That’s how it had all made me feel at the time"
Police: That you’d done something wrong?
LL: "Yeah, not intentionally but I felt if I’d done something, if my practice wasn’t good enough...then it made me an evil person"

Police: “You’ve particularly got the word Hate there … which is circled with a big black circle, hate in bold letters. What’s the significance of that?"
Lucy Letby: “That I hate myself for having let everybody down. And for not being good enough”

Police: "(You wrote) 'I did this, why me, I did this'. ”What did you do?"
LL: "I don’t know. I felt the situation had been caused by them implying that I hadn’t been competent"



Asked about why she thought the police would get involved, Letby replies: "I don't know, I just panicked."
She said she thought she would be referred to the NMC - [the Nursing and Midwifery Council] - and they would refer it to the police.
She said she felt 'so isolated and alone', as she could only speak to two friends, and had written a 'kill myself' note.
She said she believed she had not done anything wrong, but was worried they would believe she was not good enough
.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27


She wiped away tears with a tissue as the court heard her explanation as to why she had written: “I’ll never have children or marry, I’ll never know what it’s like to have a family.”

The detective asked: “What did you mean by that Lucy?”

Letby replied: “Just that I’d never meet anybody and therefore I’d never have a family.

“Because nobody would want to. If you say to somebody you had to be redeployed then people make assumptions, don’t they, and if my practice had caused these problems then I wouldn’t deserve to have children myself.”


Lucy Letby wrote note because ‘everything got on top of me’

Evidence in chief

Re: 'I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them, I am a horrible evil person'.
Asked what she means by that note, Letby responds: [...]

She says it was "difficult", with the "isolation I felt", and this lasted "two years".


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

Myers' re-examination following cross-examination

An example is shown of Letby on holiday in Torquay with her dad in July 2016.
Another example is of Letby having drinks with university friends in July 14, 2016. Letby says they were the girls she had been with when she was studying nursing.
Another example is of a picture of a couple of bottles of Prosecco on July 22, 2016. Letby is asked if she was allowed to drink Prosecco at this time. Letby agrees.
Another photo is on August 16, 2016, on a day out in Port Sunlight with her parents who had come to Chester. Letby messaged one of her nursing colleagues - her "best friend", and one she said she was allowed to speak to, about Port Sunlight being 'perfect for a picnic and a stroll'.
A photo is taken of Letby at her back garden to her Chester home in August 2016.
A Whatsapp message Letby sent in a group of nursing colleagues was: "It's too sad" in reference to Jennifer Jones-Key leaving the unit.
Letby says 'around September time' the instructions for Letby not to contact anyone on the nursing unit other than three colleagues had 'changed'.
A message on September 22, 2016 to one of the three colleagues - 'All ok with E [Eirian]. Feel bit more positive knowing she's definitely behind me...'
Letby is seen smiling in a number of photos.
Mr Myers asks why Letby is smiling in the photos when it was around the time she handwrote notes documenting her problems.
LL: "Because despite what is going on, you have to find some kind of quality of life."


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

Reading these transcripts after her guilty conviction is interesting, because some of her statements could be interpreted in different ways. For example,

Lucy Letby was asked to elaborate on why she’d written it. She said “I was blaming myself but not because I’d done something, because of the way people were making me feel”

She didn't say she hadn't done something, so this could be interpreted as she had done something but didn't blame herself due to this. She only blamed herself when other people called her out on it.


LL: "I don’t know. I felt the situation had been caused by them implying that I hadn’t been competent"

Could this mean that she attacked the babies because it was suggested she was incompetent?
 
you see I’m not so sure. If she’s present at numerous deaths and they are not thought to be suspicious doesn’t that highlight that you can be around them and not be the cause as was mr Myers case? Association is not causation etc

Yeh I thought if you look at 5he sequence of events in the eyes of the police investigation, they might be somewhat limited in what they can present in what I am sure was the first of two maybe three trials. they’ve had so long to find their evidence though, I’d be genuinely surprised if they found anything more from that time frame. How many years of investigation now almost eight Years. Wow.
We don't know that they weren't thought to be suspicious. In fact in the case I linked to we know that her death was thought to be suspicious and police did investigate, though ultimately they didn't press charges. LL being on shift for every single death does not work in her favour at all. Though, as you know, for the babies in the trial, there was far more evidence than her just being on shift when they died.
 
Reading these transcripts after her guilty conviction is interesting, because some of her statements could be interpreted in different ways. For example,

Lucy Letby was asked to elaborate on why she’d written it. She said “I was blaming myself but not because I’d done something, because of the way people were making me feel”

She didn't say she hadn't done something, so this could be interpreted as she had done something but didn't blame herself due to this. She only blamed herself when other people called her out on it.


LL: "I don’t know. I felt the situation had been caused by them implying that I hadn’t been competent"

Could this mean that she attacked the babies because it was suggested she was incompetent?
Yes there's possible leakage from LL in that wording.
"
 
Could this mean that she attacked the babies because it was suggested she was incompetent?
I think so. ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them.’

I don’t think she wrote that because she had low self esteem or doubted her ability in any way. I think it was written in spite. JMO.
 
I read a book about Dennis Nilsen which claimed that on one occasion a sliver of his mind opened and he saw the absolute horror of the crimes he had committed, but the truth was too much for him, so he simply closed that part of his mind forever.

I read a book about Nilsen too, "Killing for Company" I think it was called. I regretted reading it as it was so disturbing it played on my mind for months.
 
I think so. ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them.’

I don’t think she wrote that because she had low self esteem or doubted her ability in any way. I think it was written in spite. JMO.
I completely agree. That's what I think her motive was, and I think she gained reward, a superiority, from knowing more than the consultants and everyone else, what had caused the collapses and deaths.
 
I read a book about Nilsen too, "Killing for Company" I think it was called. I regretted reading it as it was so disturbing it played on my mind for months.

It could have been that book. Whilst I was studying for my MA, I used to go round to a course mate's house so we could study together, and she lived in the house next door to where Nielsen had lived, in Cranley Gardens!
 
If a person does not seek help, then we should not be surprised that tragedies happen.

What is the use of educating and training mental health specialists then?

Why do people deprive themselves of specialist help?

Besides doctors have to keep "doctor-patient confidentiality".

Whatever a person discloses to a doctor is CONFIDENTIAL.

JMO
Maybe in some places, but if someone admits they have thoughts of harming their patients or children, doctors can warn others.

Yes. The Privacy Rule permits a health care provider to disclose necessary information about a patient to law enforcement, family members of the patient, or other persons, when the provider believes the patient presents a serious and imminent threat to self or others.Sep 12, 2017

Does HIPAA permit a doctor to contact a patient's family or law ...​

 
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