GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[Clio]

21 Questions (Cont Part 2 Preventing a lawful burial - SH)

11) Are you sure that Hoare prevented the burial of Miss Watts by taking part in the dismemberment and hiding of Miss Watts' body?
If yes: Guilty of preventing a lawful burial.
If no: Not guilty of preventing a lawful burial.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28146837-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5W8pDfw

 

[Alyce]

Just to say my OH used to have one of those pull up bars in a doorway in a previous house - they are incredibly strong when fitted correctly.

Agree with some of you saying it's a possibility - hence I too suggested it when I first saw the real pix of CML ( and IMO it gets around some of the floor space issues we were debating at that time and IMO the sheer difficulty of undertaking this in a bath with no faults to bath/body) , BUT he would still, suspended, need help to get the precise cuts he did achieve. How tall is he - 5'5" or so.

ETA _ afterthought - wouldn't there be suspension marks though, found by forensics?

I thought ( but may be wrong here ) there were marks on Becky's right wrist, which showed that a handcuff has been around that wrist. But not on the left wrist. Which was what made me think of the bar.

 

[cottonweaver]

Kudos to Hon. Dingemans

These 21 questions are brilliant in assisting jury- the foreperson can draft up a flow chart on their flip board!!!

 

[Clio]

21 Questions (Cont Part 3 - Assisting an Offender - JI)

12) Are you sure that Ireland transported various bags containing the body of Miss Watts
Admitted – go to question 13.

13) Are you sure that at the time Ireland transported the body parts he knew or believed that Matthews was guilty of robbery or handling stolen goods?
If yes: Go to question 14.
If no: Not guilty of assisting an offender.

14) Are you sure that Ireland had no lawful authority or reasonable excuse for transporting or storing the various bags containing the body of Miss Watts.
Admitted – go to question 15.

15) Are you sure that the defendant whose case you are considering intended to impede the apprehension or prosecution of Matthews by transporting or storing the various bags containing the body of Miss Watts?
If yes: Guilty of assisting an offender.
If no: Not guilty of assisting an offender.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28146837-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5Xj1w8X

 

[Clio]

21 Questions (Cont Part 4 Assisting an Offender - DD)

16) Are you sure that Donovan Demetrius transported or stored the various bags containing the body of Miss Watts?
If yes: Go to question 17.
If no: Not guilty of assisting an offender.

17) Are you sure that at the time Donovan Demetrius transported or stored the various bags he knew or believed that Matthews had committed either a robbery, or was handling stolen goods or was possessing illegal drugs with intent to supply to another. (The jury will have to all agreed on whether it was a robbery, or was handling stolen goods or was possessing illegal drugs with intent to supply to another).
If yes: Go to question 18.
If no: Not guilty of assisting an offender.

18)Are you sure that Donovan Demetrius had no lawful authority or reasonable excuse for transporting or storing the various bags containing the body of Miss Watts?
Admitted – go to question 19.

19) Are you sure that Donovan Demetrius intended to impede the apprehension or prosecution of Matthews by transporting or storing the various bags containing the body of Miss Watts?
If yes: Guilty of assisting an offender.
If no: Not guilty of assisting an offender.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28146837-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5YYOjHg

 

[YidArmyRach]

The pull up bar fits in the door frame. SH did say the handcuffs were normally clipped to the pull up bar on the bedroom door frame but maybe it was moved to the bathroom doorframe.

If that had been done, then surely the door wouldn't have been able to be locked, let alone shut.

As their living room was described as being a living room in name only, as it was unusable due to so much clutter, then - as we have heard - the only place that SH could spent her time at home was the bedroom...... which means she would have been able to see right into the bathroom if the door was obstructed by a bar being placed within the door frame.

 

[Clio]

21 Questions (Cont Part 5 Possession of a prohibited weapon - SH)

20) Are you sure that Hoare knew that the stun guns were not torches?
If yes: Go to question 21.
If no: Not guilty of possession of a prohibited weapon.

21) Are you sure that Hoare had the same rights as Matthews to use the stun guns?
If yes: Guilty of possession of a prohibited weapon.
If no: Not guilty of possession of a prohibited weapon.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28146837-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5YusMYA

 

[Tortoise]

That is what I am saying, for me there is a big difference asking me to decide if something is slightly possible compared to if it is reasonably possible aka plausible.

So, for example, it's theoretically possible that SH did not know NM was upstairs killing BW but it is not reasonable nor plausible....

RSBM

Yes, theoretically possible isn't the test IMO. It is 'am I having to suspend all my beliefs in order to accept this is reasonably possibly true' and 'how many times am I having to do this'.

But there are things which the jury may feel they do not have any direct or circumstantial evidence for. Like, I can be certain SH was involved in covering this up by the time AG got back, an hour after it happened, but can I be certain that she had intention to kill or harm Becky? That is when there is a crossing of the line IMO from evidence to agreed reasonable judgement. and I would suggest the following might be used to decide she is guilty -

1. she was on board within an hour of the killing - she helped with the story and as she would have been back indoors after 10 minutes, even if it is true she went outside at all, helped in the clear up.
2. NM was hampered by his fibromyalgia to do the killing alone.
3. she has no valid reason for not confessing to the police all that she knew he did alone - if she was scared of the repercussions / NM. This could be backed up by what he had done to her in the past. I very much doubt a prosecution would have been successfully brought against her if she was innocent.
4. no reasonable person would cover up out of loyalty for a murderer. if she knew his loss of control and violence had spiraled to that extent, killing, without her being involved or assisting in any way, he was obviously in need of being locked up for her own safety if nothing else.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Just thinking about the fibromyalgia situation ( and ggrr if there are no doctors reports either confirming or dismissing this ).

Many of us have said why didnt NM just take Becky's body and put it into a river/water, that same day while he had her in the boot.

If NMs fibro really is that bad, then presumably he would not have been able to manage this alone.
So, if it were just him and SH in the car, no problem. They could drive somewhere and dispose of Becky.
But, they had their child with them. It is one thing to put child in front of tv while they are upstairs in CH. Quite another to have child in car, watching, while mummy and daddy are putting a body into water.
And this situation would not change, child was always with SH ( I think ) as she didn't go to day care or have a friend to call on for child minding.
So, NM realised he would have to do this part alone and therefore dismemberment became necessary, meaning disposal would be of smaller packages.

I don't know - most young children will fall asleep during a relatively long drive. If they had waited until night time, I'm sure their little girl would have slept through them removing a body from the car and dumping it in the dark. If she takes after her mother, she would be able to sleep through anything!

 

[Clio]

Heart West News ‏@HeartWestNews · 56s57 seconds ago
Court has resumed in #beckywatts trial. Judge is summing up the forensic evidence for the jury

 

[ColourPurple]

Just to say my OH used to have one of those pull up bars in a doorway in a previous house - they are incredibly strong when fitted correctly.

Agree with some of you saying it's a possibility - hence I too suggested it when I first saw the real pix of CML ( and IMO it gets around some of the floor space issues we were debating at that time and IMO the sheer difficulty of undertaking this in a bath with no faults to bath/body) , BUT he would still, suspended, need help to get the precise cuts he did achieve. How tall is he - 5'5" or so.

ETA _ afterthought - wouldn't there be suspension marks though, found by forensics?

She was cut across the wrists during dismemberment so it mightbe hard to see any . It just says

"Forensic pathologist Dr Deborah Cook said there were 33 injuries on her head, arms, legs and hands."

I thought I'd read that only one hand had cuff marks which would fit in with the other cuff being clipped to something else but I can't find it. Or maybe it was NM saying she only had one hand handcuffed... can anyone remember?

Also what do people make of this part

Several criss-cross injuries, apparently made by a screwdriver, were also found on the teenager's body.

Do they mean actual Xs were made or just that the screwdriver was one of those with a cross head
http://news.sky.com/story/1569458/becky-watts-had-40-injuries-on-her-body

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I can't decide if I think JI is guilty or not. However, due to the fact he has already done 8 months I hope he walks away free.

 

[ColourPurple]

I thought ( but may be wrong here ) there were marks on Becky's right wrist, which showed that a handcuff has been around that wrist. But not on the left wrist. Which was what made me think of the bar.

That's what I was just searching for, I knew I'd read that but couldn't find it

 

[Alyce]

If that had been done, then surely the door wouldn't have been able to be locked, let alone shut.

As their living room was described as being a living room in name only, as it was unusable due to so much clutter, then - as we have heard - the only place that SH could spent her time at home was the bedroom...... which means she would have been able to see right into the bathroom if the door was obstructed by a bar being placed within the door frame.

I would have to look at the pics again of CML, as it would depend on the width of the door frame.
The one I remember in my childhood home, the bar was placed on the outer section of the frame at the top of the door, meaning the actual door could be closed properly. I am not describing this very well, but if you look at a typical door frame, there are two parts at the top. One that the door slots in to when closed and then an outer section that you can see when the door is closed.
It does depend on width though.
Have just been doing a test with doors in my house and definately we could fit a large sturdy bar into any of the bedroom doors and still close the door properly. But we would struggle with our bathroom door as the frame is quite narrow.

 

[sar2them1984]

I must say I've appreciated the judges instructions immensely. Clear. Concise. And exceedingly clarifying

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Clio]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 36s36 seconds ago
Judge is now going through the injuries found on Becky. #beckywatts

 

[Alyce]

I can't decide if I think JI is guilty or not. However, due to the fact he has already done 8 months I hope he walks away free.

I agree. I think he has done more than enough time for his involvement. Perhaps a suspended sentence will be given, if they find him guilty.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks Clio. This part of your post lays out how the charges are linked (sadly IMO) pretty clearly


4) Have you convicted Hoare of conspiracy to kidnap?

If yes: Go to question 5

If no: Not guilty of murder or manslaughter

5) Have you convicted Matthews of murder?

If yes: Go to question 6

If no: Go to question 7

6) Are you sure that Hoare participated or continued to participate in the kidnapping of Miss Watts intending to kill her or to cause her really serious bodily harm and that in the court of that attack Matthews suffocated or strangled Miss Watts while intending to kill her to cause her really serious bodily harm?

If yes: Guilty of murder.

If no: Not guilty of murder, but go to question 7.

7) Are you sure that Hoare participated or continued to participate in a kidnap of Miss Watts and that all sober and reasonable people would inevitably realise that some harm might be caused to Miss Watts and that during the court of the kidnap Miss Watts was suffocated or strangled by Matthews and was killed?

If yes: Guilty of manslaughter.

If no: Not guilty of manslaughter.




http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-28146837-detail/story.html#ixzz3r5cf1L8s

 

[Alyce]

She was cut across the wrists during dismemberment so it mightbe hard to see any . It just says

"Forensic pathologist Dr Deborah Cook said there were 33 injuries on her head, arms, legs and hands."

I thought I'd read that only one hand had cuff marks which would fit in with the other cuff being clipped to something else but I can't find it. Or maybe it was NM saying she only had one hand handcuffed... can anyone remember?

Also what do people make of this part



Do they mean actual Xs were made or just that the screwdriver was one of those with a cross head
http://news.sky.com/story/1569458/becky-watts-had-40-injuries-on-her-body

I am reading that as Xs being made, rather than describing the screwdriver.
I think the Xs were either made, same as the knife, to try and speed up the elimination of bodily fluids......... or, they were made in rage by 2 people whose game had not gone to plan.

 

[Clio]

ITV Becky Trial ‏@ITVBeckyTrial · 18s18 seconds ago
The judge lists what was found in the shed, alongside Becky's dismembered body. #beckywatts