GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #5

[Alyce]

Just looking at the summary of charges - explains why the charge of perverting the course of Justice is not showing as a charge against NM
I did not realise he had put in a guilty plea for anything.

 

[jessie]

Regarding whether SH can be accused/found guilty of murder if she didn't actually 'wield the knife' as it were, this bit is snipped from an article about Guilt by Association Joint Enterprise.

convicted under joint enterprise, a doctrine of common law used to convict entire groups of the same crime. If several people set out to commit a crime together, such as a robbery, and in the course of that crime someone is murdered, the entire group can be convicted of murder regardless of who dealt the fatal blow. All that needs to be proven is that the individuals present foresaw that the murder might occur.

Worth a read in full to understand. link here: http://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-11/541982102c4b4b1f40000066/

 

[still-searching]

SH was only 14 when she met the then 22 year old NM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...brother-controlling-girlfriend-jury-told.html

 

[Cherwell]

James Ireland and Donavan Demetrius

Assisting an offender - NOT GUILTY

Jaydene Parker, 23, and boyfriend 29-year-old Karl Demetrius admitted assisting an offender at an earlier hearing.

Thinking about the implications of the "assisting an offender" charge. If they were thought to have been aware of the true contents of the packages, could they have been charged with something more serious?

If I agreed to store some cannabis or stolen goods, I would still be guilty of "assisting an offender" even if it turned out to be the far more serious matter of the remains of a murder victim and I did not know that. My thinking is that it would be sensible to plead guilty, as two of them have done. They had to have known there was something illegal about the items, but not necessarily what it was.

ETA I say they "had to have known" because of the evidence that they were expecting to be paid a considerable sum.

 

[Alyce]

Thinking about the implications of the "assisting an offender" charge. If they were thought to have been aware of the true contents of the packages, could they have been charged with something more serious?

If I agreed to store some cannabis or stolen goods, I would still be guilty of "assisting an offender" even if it turned out to be the far more serious matter of the remains of a murder victim and I did not know that. My thinking is that it would be sensible to plead guilty, as two of them have done. They had to have known there was something illegal about the items, but not necessarily what it was.

ETA I say they "had to have known" because of the evidence that they were expecting to be paid a considerable sum.

Yes I agree. Assisting an offender is still the charge, whether they thought it was cannabis, dodgy goods, or a body.
I also do wonder, was it usual for NM to offer £5,000 simply for storing some cannabis ? To me, that would seem a large amount, but then I don't know the relative costs involved ( how much NM would have made , assuming it was cannabis ).

I think with DD, he is possibly going to try and claim he was only involved on the periphery of things, if at all. He was not the person driving the van, he could say he just happened to be at the house at that time the others arrived and he helped out putting * packages* into the shed.
I think his deletion of all text messages from that night tells another story, but that is for the prosecution to prove.
With JI, I think it is going to be far more difficult for him to escape a charge, he seems more closely involved.

 

[Cherwell]

I also do wonder, was it usual for NM to offer £5,000 simply for storing some cannabis ?

I doubt there was a precedent. He said he only needed to get it out of his house because it was about to be searched in connection with his step-sister going missing. He may well have had illegal goods in his house in the past, but with no reason to fear a search.

 

[Wallace]

I also do wonder, was it usual for NM to offer £5,000 simply for storing some cannabis ? To me, that would seem a large amount, but then I don't know the relative costs involved ( how much NM would have made , assuming it was cannabis )

If you search for recent cannabis busts, 60KG of cannabis would have an estimated street value of £750,000 or more.

All these characters seem far too small scale to be handling that kind of value. Wasn't NM supposed to be driving part time delivering for the local takeaway? Why would he need to do that if he was moving that kind of value in cannabis.


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[mrazda71]

If you search for recent cannabis busts, 60KG of cannabis would have an estimated street value of £750,000 or more.

All these characters seem far too small scale to be handling that kind of value. Wasn't NM supposed to be driving part time delivering for the local takeaway? Why would he need to do that if he was moving that kind of value in cannabis.


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It would be his cover for driving around and dropping off ... but I would imagine if NM was heavily involved with drugs we might have heard something along those lines from somewhere even if it were just social media.

 

[Tealgrove]

I knew a guy that was a BIG TIME drug dealer. He worked at the Liquor Store as he needed a job in order to declare income and provide income tax filings. It was strictly a front so he didn't arouse suspicion. It was the big fancy house, cars, trips, clothes etc., that gave him away in the end. Once again, criminals seems to think they are smarter than the rest of us. NOT!

 

[Wallace]

It would be his cover for driving around and dropping off ... but I would imagine if NM was heavily involved with drugs we might have heard something along those lines from somewhere even if it were just social media.

Pretty sure there was some mention of it on the forum back when they were all arrested.

Still find it incredible that they have admitted another crime by trying to excuse the other.


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[Wallace]

I knew a guy that was a BIG TIME drug dealer. He worked at the Liquor Store as he needed a job in order to declare income and provide income tax filings. It was strictly a front so he didn't arouse suspicion. It was the big fancy house, cars, trips, clothes etc., that gave him away in the end. Once again, criminals seems to think they are smarter than the rest of us. NOT!

That's the thing, if he was dealing on that scale there were no outward signs of it. No flash cars, flash apartments or houses. Just not believable.

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[mrazda71]

http://m.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-Watts/story-27953232-detail/story.html

Evidence from a co worker of Ireland and Demetrius -

 

[Alyce]

[video=twitter;652486015433707520]https://twitter.com/ITVBeckyTrial/status/652486015433707520[/video]

 

[Cherwell]

That's the thing, if he was dealing on that scale there were no outward signs of it. No flash cars, flash apartments or houses. Just not believable.

The helpers may have believed him, though. Doesn't matter what we think. They may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

 

[Cherwell]

Still find it incredible that they have admitted another crime by trying to excuse the other.

Not sure what you mean there, Wallace. The way I see it, they (well, two of them) have admitted the single crime they have been charged with, namely assisting an offender. I'm sure none of them are "excusing" murder.
In their position, I would put my hands up, say "yes, I did offer to store something and I had a good idea it was illegal goods. But if I had suspected for one moment it was connected to a kidnap and murder, I would not have done so".

 

[Wallace]

Not sure what you mean there, Wallace. The way I see it, they (well, two of them) have admitted the single crime they have been charged with, namely assisting an offender. I'm sure none of them are "excusing" murder.
In their position, I would put my hands up, say "yes, I did offer to store something and I had a good idea it was illegal goods. But if I had suspected for one moment it was connected to a kidnap and murder, I would not have done so".

Can understand why it wasn't that clear.

The excusing was not to do with the murder, and after all they are not being accused of murder, but simply assisting an offender.

They were obviously caught over a barrel due to the amount of money they were offered, they had to know it was something dodgy. Just can't see how claiming they were moving 60KG of cannabis helps their situation.

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[Cherwell]

Can understand why it wasn't that clear.

The excusing was not to do with the murder, and after all they are not being accused of murder, but simply assisting an offender.

They were obviously caught over a barrel due to the amount of money they were offered, they had to know it was something dodgy. Just can't see how claiming they were moving 60KG of cannabis helps their situation.

Can only speak for myself, but my opinion of someone who agreed to store illegal goods, whether it be bags of weed, stolen TVs or whatever, would be very different from that of someone who knowingly agreed to store the dismembered body of a murdered teenager.

 

[still-searching]

Can understand why it wasn't that clear.

The excusing was not to do with the murder, and after all they are not being accused of murder, but simply assisting an offender.

They were obviously caught over a barrel due to the amount of money they were offered, they had to know it was something dodgy. Just can't see how claiming they were moving 60KG of cannabis helps their situation.

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Cannabis offences are dealt with quite leniently in the UK. Especially if you're young/first time offender/low down the chain.
As you say, they almost certainly knew it was something illegal, whether or not they knew it was a body I don't know, saying they thought it was weed and thus insinuating perhaps they were used to handling weed is a lot better than insinuating they're involved with storing and or dealing cocaine or heroin.

 

[Wallace]

Can only speak for myself, but my opinion of someone who agreed to store illegal goods, whether it be bags of weed, stolen TVs or whatever, would be very different from that of someone who knowingly agreed to store the dismembered body of a murdered teenager.

Due to the weight we are talking about approx 60KG it would be a category 1 offence. Their role could be argued to be significant so that has a starting point of 10 years. Even a lesser role would have a starting point of 7 years.

You'd probably get a smacked wrist and a holiday in Spain if it were stolen TV's or laptops.

Assisting an offender has a starting point of 3 years.

So my point is that they have freely admitted to potentially committing a crime which carries over double the charge of the one they are accused of.

Is that clearer?

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[Bluey]

Cannabis offences are dealt with quite leniently in the UK. Especially if you're young/first time offender/low down the chain.
As you say, they almost certainly knew it was something illegal, whether or not they knew it was a body I don't know, saying they thought it was weed and thus insinuating perhaps they were used to handling weed is a lot better than insinuating they're involved with storing and or dealing cocaine or heroin.

To need a few people and a van to move weed though, the weight and bulk, it doesn't sound believable to me.Would it have sounded reasonable to them? There was Becky's remains and power tools aswell I think. Did they think all that
was weed, £750,000 ?