UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[Interested_But_Confused]

I agree with what you say about the witness sightings and timelines @Terryb808:

So much so that yesterday evening i had a look in AS book about WJ and her view on the white Ford Fiesta being parked on Stevenage Road (pages 26 - 27).

In the Crimewatch reconstruction (1986), WJ can be seen leaving her property around 12.45 to go to the bank, and she crosses the road before passing the Ford Fiesta, which would indicate she got to have a good look at the car and how it was parked. However, in AS book this isn't actually what happened:

'Mrs Jones told a policeman that the previous day she took her dog for a very brief walk at 12.40, before calling for a neighbour Mrs Mahon. She noticed as she did so a white Ford Fiesta was parked by the Mahon's garage, slightly overlapping the entrance, and wondered whether Mrs Mahon's husband would have dificulty getting his car into the garage that evening.'

So, completely left out of the Crimewatch reconstruction, comes the astonishing news that WJ went out with AM that lunchtime, the very same Mrs M who's husband LM would come home at 5.15 to find the car (still?) parked overlapping the entrance to the garage. I must admit i don't recall reading that bit of information before, and it came as a surprise to me!

Does the fact that WJ knew the garage owners add any credence to her story?

To continue (Page 26):

'The two women then drove to the NatWest Bank by Fulham Cross, where AM was changing a large amount of coins from a pay phone in her house. She was embarrassed taking time doing this when there were other lunchtime customers waiting behind her. She glanced at the bank clock and noticed it was 12.49.'

The way it is written sounds like it was AM, not WJ, who noticed the time on the bank clock. Why has AM never been viewed as an important witness to the car being parked where it was? And the timeline doesn't seem right. Taking the dog for a walk, bringing it home, going to call for AM, getting in the car (who's car was it? where was it parked?), driving to the bank, parking the car, and then going into the bank. Did all that really only take 9 minutes?

That's very interesting, thank you for posting it.

It's possible AM simply didn't want to be named or featured in the reconstructions, and that because she and WJ saw the same thing and were telling the same story, WJ became a sort of "composite" witness. The Crimewatch video does mention that there were other unnamed witnesses who saw the car parked in that position.

I don't know exactly where NatWest was at Fulham Cross in 1986, but getting from Stevenage Road to Fulham Cross apparently only takes about 4-5 minutes:

123 Stevenage Rd to Fulham Cross (Stop HE)

www.google.com

Could all of that be done in about 9-10 minutes? Like so many aspects of Suzy's case, it requires very tight timings but might be just about doable.

If WJ took her dog for a short walk, an important question might be whether the white Fiesta was there when she left, or only when she returned.

 

[WestLondoner]

Interesting stuff. It kind of reinforces my view that WJ was probably more accurate in what she saw than in when she saw it.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'm not so sure. If AM and WJ were both telling much the same story, and both of them were talking about a timeline of about 12:40-12:50PM, the existence of AM potentially corroborates WJ's timing of what she saw.

Both apparently saw the car *before* they went to the bank, and the bank clock said 12:49PM when they were in there. If they both agree it was still the same car when they returned, that would appear to strengthen the conclusion that it was definitely Suzy's car parked at 12:40-12:45PM.

The only question mark I see is this: if the car could have been there as early as 12:40PM, the amount of time for Suzy to get from Sturgis to 123SR becomes even smaller.

 

[Terryb808]

This article featured in the Daily Mirror in Aug 1988, it does quite fact & fiction, which is not that normal within the media.

 

[Terryb808]

should read Aug 1986

 

[WiseOwl]

That's very interesting, thank you for posting it.

It's possible AM simply didn't want to be named or featured in the reconstructions, and that because she and WJ saw the same thing and were telling the same story, WJ became a sort of "composite" witness. The Crimewatch video does mention that there were other unnamed witnesses who saw the car parked in that position.

I don't know exactly where NatWest was at Fulham Cross in 1986, but getting from Stevenage Road to Fulham Cross apparently only takes about 4-5 minutes:

123 Stevenage Rd to Fulham Cross (Stop HE)

www.google.com

Could all of that be done in about 9-10 minutes? Like so many aspects of Suzy's case, it requires very tight timings but might be just about doable.

If WJ took her dog for a short walk, an important question might be whether the white Fiesta was there when she left, or only when she returned.

While its possible that AM didn't want to take part in any reconstruction, i still find it strange that the police have always semingly gone along with WJ's statement but have never said that there was someone else who can corroborate it - they don't have to name names after all. It makes me wonder if AM's version differs in some ways to WJ's account that lunchtime and that's why it's never been made public? Did AM actually see the car parked as it was or did she just rely on what WJ told her? Did they both return together in the car or did WJ go off on her own shopping after going to the bank?

 

[WiseOwl]

The other witnesses who were around that day are mentioned in AS book page 41:

' A cab driver did report picking up a fare in Finlay Street (just off Stevenage Road), who told him he had seen a couple having a right ruck - a fierce argument. Despite appeals, the fare never came forward. Two housewives seperately reported hearing screams during the afternoon, one a spooky, high-pitched yowl, but the school holidays were in full swing and there were dozens of children playing nearby' (it doesn't state where these dozens of children were playing though).

'There were even two workmen digging holes and laying pipes in Stevenage Road that day, just yards from where Suzy's car was found. Bert Carter and his 21 year-old son Christopher were working outside in the road all day, from 9.00 til around 4.00. Neither of them saw or heard anything unusual; no screams, groans, shouts, struggles, etc. Dozens of people had walked along the road and they did not see or hear anything to report either. Several remembered seeing the parked white Ford Fiesta at various times in the afternoon or evening, and one schoolboy even claimed to have seen it around midday.'

It would be interesting to know exactly how many people had seen the car parked that day and at what times thay had seen it. I do wonder if AS did have this information to hand but condensed it down to this paragraph in his book?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

While its possible that AM didn't want to take part in any reconstruction, i still find it strange that the police have always semingly gone along with WJ's statement but have never said that there was someone else who can corroborate it - they don't have to name names after all. It makes me wonder if AM's version differs in some ways to WJ's account that lunchtime and that's why it's never been made public? Did AM actually see the car parked as it was or did she just rely on what WJ told her? Did they both return together in the car or did WJ go off on her own shopping after going to the bank?

I must have misread the quotes in your previous post, because I thought it said AM had seen the car. But you're right, it doesn't. So perhaps AM was never used as a witness because she simply never saw anything of note.

Apologies if this is a detail I've overlooked, but do we know which house the Mahon's lived in? The garage looks like it could belong to one of the houses on either Langthorne or Kenyon Street. If AM lived on either of those streets, I think it is quite possible she never passed or saw the white Fiesta at all.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The other witnesses who were around that day are mentioned in AS book page 41:

' A cab driver did report picking up a fare in Finlay Street (just off Stevenage Road), who told him he had seen a couple having a right ruck - a fierce argument. Despite appeals, the fare never came forward. Two housewives seperately reported hearing screams during the afternoon, one a spooky, high-pitched yowl, but the school holidays were in full swing and there were dozens of children playing nearby' (it doesn't state where these dozens of children were playing though).

'There were even two workmen digging holes and laying pipes in Stevenage Road that day, just yards from where Suzy's car was found. Bert Carter and his 21 year-old son Christopher were working outside in the road all day, from 9.00 til around 4.00. Neither of them saw or heard anything unusual; no screams, groans, shouts, struggles, etc. Dozens of people had walked along the road and they did not see or hear anything to report either. Several remembered seeing the parked white Ford Fiesta at various times in the afternoon or evening, and one schoolboy even claimed to have seen it around midday.'

It would be interesting to know exactly how many people had seen the car parked that day and at what times thay had seen it. I do wonder if AS did have this information to hand but condensed it down to this paragraph in his book?

There are (and I assume were in 1986) quite a few parks and playing fields along Stevenage Road, so I'm not sure how helpful screams would be. I've actually only just noticed how close Stevenage Road is to the River Thames. That feels a little ominous:

Stevenage Rd · London, UK

London, UK

www.google.com

The workmen would theoretically be ideal witnesses, except that their testimony seems to be negative rather than positive; negative meaning they don't report having seen or heard anything. They were reportedly working "yards from where Suzy's car was found," but how many yards are we talking? Five? Fifty? Five hundred? Stevenage Road is about 1000 yards long. It's not a short road.

 

[WiseOwl]

I must have misread the quotes in your previous post, because I thought it said AM had seen the car. But you're right, it doesn't. So perhaps AM was never used as a witness because she simply never saw anything of note.

Apologies if this is a detail I've overlooked, but do we know which house the Mahon's lived in? The garage looks like it could belong to one of the houses on either Langthorne or Kenyon Street. If AM lived on either of those streets, I think it is quite possible she never passed or saw the white Fiesta at all.

I can't recall any information about the Mahon's unfortunately. Looking at Google Maps from above it looks as though the garage might belong to the first house (105) as you turn right onto Langthorpe Street.

You could be correct about AM, although i'm fairly sure WJ would have mentioned the car being parked where it was when she went to call for her that lunchtime.

It's a strange coincidence, but with KR (from Sturgis) going to the bank around 12.30, and WJ & AM going to the bank at 12.45, somewhere between those times Suzy left the office, but where did she go?

 

[WiseOwl]

There are (and I assume were in 1986) quite a few parks and playing fields along Stevenage Road, so I'm not sure how helpful screams would be. I've actually only just noticed how close Stevenage Road is to the River Thames. That feels a little ominous:

Stevenage Rd · London, UK

London, UK

www.google.com

The workmen would theoretically be ideal witnesses, except that their testimony seems to be negative rather than positive; negative meaning they don't report having seen or heard anything. They were reportedly working "yards from where Suzy's car was found," but how many yards are we talking? Five? Fifty? Five hundred? Stevenage Road is about 1000 yards long. It's not a short road.

Yes, i've always considered the possibility that the River Thames might have been Suzy's final resting place, it is really close to Stevenage Road. Also, if you look from where Suzy's car was found on Stevenage Road to the Thames, across the water from there is something called The London Wetland Centre. This area appears to contain lakes and reservoirs, does anyone know what it was in the 1980's? Could it have been a likely place to dispose of a body?

 

[Terryb808]

Yes, i've always considered the possibility that the River Thames might have been Suzy's final resting place, it is really close to Stevenage Road. Also, if you look from where Suzy's car was found on Stevenage Road to the Thames, across the water from there is something called The London Wetland Centre. This area appears to contain lakes and reservoirs, does anyone know what it was in the 1980's? Could it have been a likely place to dispose of a body?

The London wetland centre didn’t exist in 1986, it was converted from its original (4 IIRC) balancing lakes. I’ve seen photos of what it looked like back then.
Funnily enough a long time ago when I first became interested in Suzy’s case, it was the first place I thought she might have ended up.
If that’s where she ended up there’s absolutely no chance of finding her. If you Google it you’ll see what it originally looked like and what it is today. That’ll show you why there’s no chance.
It’s a fair call though when you consider the Mets Prime Suspect JC and his liking for water.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The London wetland centre didn’t exist in 1986, it was converted from its original (4 IIRC) balancing lakes. I’ve seen photos of what it looked like back then.
Funnily enough a long time ago when I first became interested in Suzy’s case, it was the first place I thought she might have ended up.
If that’s where she ended up there’s absolutely no chance of finding her. If you Google it you’ll see what it originally looked like and what it is today. That’ll show you why there’s no chance.
It’s a fair call though when you consider the Mets Prime Suspect JC and his liking for water.

I think it should be permitted to post this link, as it's the website of the company who did the work on the Wetland Centre and includes before and after images.

This was the area before it was redeveloped:

Celebrating 20 years of the London Wetlands Centre | Berkeley Group

Two decades ago we worked with our partners to transform four disused concrete reservoirs into the London Wetlands Centre, a world renowned nature reserve and Barnes Waterside.

www.berkeleygroup.co.uk

 

[WiseOwl]

The London wetland centre didn’t exist in 1986, it was converted from its original (4 IIRC) balancing lakes. I’ve seen photos of what it looked like back then.
Funnily enough a long time ago when I first became interested in Suzy’s case, it was the first place I thought she might have ended up.
If that’s where she ended up there’s absolutely no chance of finding her. If you Google it you’ll see what it originally looked like and what it is today. That’ll show you why there’s no chance.
It’s a fair call though when you consider the Mets Prime Suspect JC and his liking for water.

Thanks for the info.

I never even knew this area existed, either before or after it became the Wetland Centre.

As you say a likely place for JC to dispose of a body, or perhaps someone who knew the area well?

 

[WiseOwl]

I think it should be permitted to post this link, as it's the website of the company who did the work on the Wetland Centre and includes before and after images.

This was the area before it was redeveloped:

View attachment 506012

Celebrating 20 years of the London Wetlands Centre | Berkeley Group

Two decades ago we worked with our partners to transform four disused concrete reservoirs into the London Wetlands Centre, a world renowned nature reserve and Barnes Waterside.

www.berkeleygroup.co.uk

Thanks for posting this, quite a transformation.

Were the reservoirs used for any specific purpose before it became the Wetland Centre?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Thanks for posting this, quite a transformation.

Were the reservoirs used for any specific purpose before it became the Wetland Centre?

A balancing pond/lake is used to help control flooding:

Balancing lake - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Wetland Centre is still probably a balancing lake, just a much nicer looking one!

If Suzy had been dumped in one of the reservoirs, I think there's a decent chance she would have been found when the work was started to break up the reservoirs in 1995.

 

[RichardKimble]

The other witnesses who were around that day are mentioned in AS book page 41:

' A cab driver did report picking up a fare in Finlay Street (just off Stevenage Road), who told him he had seen a couple having a right ruck - a fierce argument. Despite appeals, the fare never came forward. Two housewives seperately reported hearing screams during the afternoon, one a spooky, high-pitched yowl, but the school holidays were in full swing and there were dozens of children playing nearby' (it doesn't state where these dozens of children were playing though).

'There were even two workmen digging holes and laying pipes in Stevenage Road that day, just yards from where Suzy's car was found. Bert Carter and his 21 year-old son Christopher were working outside in the road all day, from 9.00 til around 4.00. Neither of them saw or heard anything unusual; no screams, groans, shouts, struggles, etc. Dozens of people had walked along the road and they did not see or hear anything to report either. Several remembered seeing the parked white Ford Fiesta at various times in the afternoon or evening, and one schoolboy even claimed to have seen it around midday.'

It would be interesting to know exactly how many people had seen the car parked that day and at what times thay had seen it. I do wonder if AS did have this information to hand but condensed it down to this paragraph in his book?

How disruptive would the work be, surely pipe laying would mean traffic lights or road closures.Noisy too I'd imagine with pneumatics, so if they were down in a hole ,they'd not see much.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I know the original Crimewatch appeal aired in October, and the reconstruction was probably filmed two or three months after Suzy disappeared. I also appreciate that the footage is low quality and grainy.

But there's absolutely no immediately obvious sign of the road having been dug up recently. I wonder how close to Suzy's car the workmen really were; her car was at the northern end of a road that is about 0.6 miles long.

This screencap is from the Crimewatch video. Unless it had been completely resurfaced since Suzy disappeared, the road doesn't look like it had been dug up for a long time:

 

[WiseOwl]

A balancing pond/lake is used to help control flooding:

Balancing lake - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Wetland Centre is still probably a balancing lake, just a much nicer looking one!

If Suzy had been dumped in one of the reservoirs, I think there's a decent chance she would have been found when the work was started to break up the reservoirs in 1995.

Did they drain the reservoirs though? I'm not to sure what 'break up the reservoirs' actually means.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Did they drain the reservoirs though? I'm not too sure what 'break up the reservoirs' actually means.

The reservoir walls were concrete according to the link I posted. I assume they drained them one by one and broke up the concrete. It would be difficult (if not impossible) to do that when the reservoirs were full of water.