UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[WestLondoner]

Agree, only two real options, either there were two perpetrators, and she was taken at her car in Whittingstall. However, against this is the question “why move the car at all?”
Or she was taken by the man she was meeting in Stevenage Road.
Looking at it logically, it really should be this second option.

In the latter case she can't have gone to 37SR, which demolishes the key part of the narrative that's been in place since 29th July 1986....

 

[Terryb808]

In the latter case she can't have gone to 37SR, which demolishes the key part of the narrative that's been in place since 29th July 1986....

Which is probably why the case failed to be solved back in 86.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

It is indeed just about possible for her to have gone to 123SR then been driven to 37SR. What I am curious about is that if we hypothesise that this is what happened, then we need an account of the anomalies that accordingly arise, e.g:

• Why did she go to 123SR at all?
• Why did she write 37SR into her diary instead of 123SR?
• Why did she not take keys to 123SR?
• If this was a viewing, why was none booked with WJ or her husband?
• Having never been to 123SR, if this was an undocumented viewing, how would SJL have known the answer to obvious buyer questions such as what the seller's position and timings were?
• Why did she immediately get into another car there and go to 37SR (the police must think this happened if they believe both WJ and HR)? Who organises a viewing of one property by meeting at another that's in the opposite direction?
• Knowing she would be away for some time, why did she leave her car unlocked, obstructing a garage and with valuables inside?
• Why did witnesses claim to have seen her outside 37SR waiting for someone, when she actually arrived there with someone?
• Why were two white Fiestas sighted in Shorrolds? What are the chances of that, and if they're quite high, why can't there have been two outside 123SR?
• Why did she not go straight to 37SR?

If the police hypothesised for argument's sake that she did go to 123SR and then in someone else's car to 37SR, then they must have had credible answers filled in for all of the above. If the answer to any of them is "No idea", then I suggest the hypothesis fails. If it is simply inexplicable that she'd drive to one house intending to show it but inequipped to do so, if it is inexplicable that she was seen outside 37SR waiting for the man with whom she'd in fact driven there - then it didn't happen.

In which case, there needs to be a reset of either what happened at 123SR, or at 37SR, or of course both.

Something I keep coming back to is the possibility that the 37SR timings were simply all wrong.

• ND1 doesn't know whether he saw SJL at 12 noon or 4pm.
• JI thought it could have been 4pm.
• ND2 seems to have got his account off the TV.
• HR made up substantial portions of his account - he did not hear anyone leave 37SR because no fingerprints and possibly no keys, he did not see SJL bundled into any car
• HR did not get a good look at either person because his impression looks nothing like ND's and he later described Belgian Bloke as looking like his Mr Kipper.

The alternative set of facts that best reconciles all the above to the car also being left at 123SR at 12.40 is very unpalatable for some: that everything seen at 37SR happened between 3.30 and 4.00pm. These people were all remembering and describing MG's visit to the property with SF at 3.45, and they all later agreed with each other.

What appeals to me about this is that you don't need to explain away anyone who's very persuasive. WJ you just accept, so she fits. ND1 and JI agreed that what they described could have happened as late as 4pm, so they fit. MG and SF went at 3.45, so they fit, and MG looks like the identikit of Kipper. Looking at the Sturgis women in the reconstruction, they're all blonde highlights too. HR is harder to fit but his account is kind of ʇᴉɥsllnq to begin with, he only needs to have been wrong about the time as well as everything else, and it was anyway the police who said he saw SJL, not HR himself. The BW sighting doesn't fit, but then it doesn't fit with any of the other theories either, so that's not a strike against this hypothesis only.

This line of reasoning says that as her car went straight to 123SR and she was never seen again, then SJL was abducted almost immediately, either on leaving the office or on arrival at 123SR.

I think every scenario requires some well-intentioned finagling, and decisions about which witness statements to take as fact or adjust to fit a theory. There simply isn't enough concrete information to do anything else. Whether it's the detective, DV, me, you, or anyone else, I think we're all having to do that to some extent.

I could see a scenario where Kipper contacted Suzy and said something like: "We arranged to meet at 37 Shorrolds, but I see you're also selling 123 Stevenage. Can I also take a look at that?" And Suzy might have replied with something like: "I'm not dealing with that property and we can't arrange a viewing at such short notice, but if you meet me there you can look at the house and the surrounding area to see if you like the look of it." Obviously I have no clue if anything like that *did* happen, but I could see it. And it would answer a lot of your questions.

I'm not too concerned about Suzy potentially being seen outside 37SR by herself, as though waiting for someone. I've known estate agents to sometimes let clients walk around houses by themselves as the agent waited outside.

I don't know a lot about the details of the two white Fiestas seen on Shorrolds. Presumably they were parked in different places and it was obvious they were two different cars? I could believe more than one similar car was parked on Stevenage Road. We know a similar one belonged to the Mahons. But it's the fact that WJ, the taxi driver, and possibly others, made such note of the peculiar position it was parked in--and that they don't believe it ever moved.

The Crimewatch video states that MG went to Shorrolds at approximately 4:30PM. Was it actually 3:45PM? I won't discount the possibility that the witnesses were seeing MG and SF, but being 3 hours off on their timing seems like quite a big discrepancy. I also don't particularly agree that MG looked like the Kipper identikits, though that is obviously very subjective. In the Crimewatch video MG has notably curly hair (which admittedly may have been different when Suzy went missing), very thick eyebrows, and quite a small mouth. To me that doesn't closely resemble either artist impression. But it certainly doesn't look much like John Cannan, either.

 

[Terryb808]

I think every scenario requires some well-intentioned finagling, and decisions about which witness statements to take as fact or adjust to fit a theory. There simply isn't enough concrete information to do anything else. Whether it's the detective, DV, me, you, or anyone else, I think we're all having to do that to some extent.

I could see a scenario where Kipper contacted Suzy and said something like: "We arranged to meet at 37 Shorrolds, but I see you're also selling 123 Stevenage. Can I also take a look at that?" And Suzy might have replied with something like: "I'm not dealing with that property and we can't arrange a viewing at such short notice, but if you meet me there you can look at the house and the surrounding area to see if you like the look of it." Obviously I have no clue if anything like that *did* happen, but I could see it. And it would answer a lot of your questions.

I'm not too concerned about Suzy potentially being seen outside 37SR by herself, as though waiting for someone. I've known estate agents to sometimes let clients walk around houses by themselves as the agent waited outside.

I don't know a lot about the details of the two white Fiestas seen on Shorrolds. Presumably they were parked in different places and it was obvious they were two different cars? I could believe more than one similar car was parked on Stevenage Road. We know a similar one belonged to the Mahons. But it's the fact that WJ, the taxi driver, and possibly others, made such note of the peculiar position it was parked in--and that they don't believe it ever moved.

The Crimewatch video states that MG went to Shorrolds at approximately 4:30PM. Was it actually 3:45PM? I won't discount the possibility that the witnesses were seeing MG and SF, but being 3 hours off on their timing seems like quite a big discrepancy. I also don't particularly agree that MG looked like the Kipper identikits, though that is obviously very subjective. In the Crimewatch video MG has notably curly hair (which admittedly may have been different when Suzy went missing), very thick eyebrows, and quite a small mouth. To me that doesn't closely resemble either artist impression. But it certainly doesn't look much like John Cannan, either.

This is definitely a rabbit hole, you either stare in, or jump. Once in, you just can’t find a way out.
IMO John Cannan wasn’t seen by any of the witnesses, if he did this he most likely took Suzy as she got out of her car in Stevenage Road.
No one saw anything and the perpetrator got clean away.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I struggle with the idea that anything happened to Suzy on Stevenage Road. Not just because there's no solid evidence anyone saw or heard anything. Let's say Suzy parked the car and was immediately accosted without having the chance to apply the handbrake, gather her belongings, or lock the door. It still doesn't explain why the car was parked so badly to begin with. The way it was parked really does suggest someone who was in a hurry, or just didn't care.

I don't believe this is what happened, but just as a thought exercise, I can't recall ever seeing Suzy's case considered as a possible suicide. What if she drove to 123SR with no care for the condition she left the car in, and walked the short distance to the Thames? I do want to stress that I don't believe that, but has it ever been put forward as a theory?

 

[Terryb808]

I struggle with the idea that anything happened to Suzy on Stevenage Road. Not just because there's no solid evidence anyone saw or heard anything. Let's say Suzy parked the car and was immediately accosted without having the chance to apply the handbrake, gather her belongings, or lock the door. It still doesn't explain why the car was parked so badly to begin with. The way it was parked really does suggest someone who was in a hurry, or just didn't care.

I don't believe this is what happened, but just as a thought exercise, I can't recall ever seeing Suzy's case considered as a possible suicide. What if she drove to 123SR with no care for the condition she left the car in, and walked the short distance to the Thames? I do want to stress that I don't believe that, but has it ever been put forward as a theory?

I’m guessing the police considered that option, they did search the Thames and the adjacent area of Barnes.
If she did what you say I’m sure her body would have turned up.
I agree regarding how the car was left, it just sings out exactly what you say.
As before, take this one step further and if WJ’s time is even roughly correct there was most likely two perpetrators.
I just can’t see one person abducting Suzy, Securing her and abandoning her car with WJ’s timeline.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I’m guessing the police considered that option, they did search the Thames and the adjacent area of Barnes.
If she did what you say I’m sure her body would have turned up.
I agree regarding how the car was left, it just sings out exactly what you say.
As before, take this one step further and if WJ’s time is even roughly correct there was most likely two perpetrators.
I just can’t see one person abducting Suzy, Securing her and abandoning her car with WJ’s timeline.

But if Suzy was snatched from right outside Sturgis, whether by one person, two people or a gang of people, it does rather beg the question of why they bothered to move her car at all. Easier to grab her and go.

Because Suzy's car appears to have been outside 123SR so close to the time she left work, it doesn't seem to leave many plausible options: she either drove there herself straight from work, or someone snatched her/the car immediately as she was leaving work. Or, less likely, her car wasn't outside work to begin with.

 

[Terryb808]

But if Suzy was snatched from right outside Sturgis, whether by one person, two people or a gang of people, it does rather beg the question of why they bothered to move her car at all. Easier to grab her and go.

Because Suzy's car appears to have been outside 123SR so close to the time she left work, it doesn't seem to leave many plausible options: she either drove there herself straight from work, or someone snatched her/the car immediately as she was leaving work. Or, less likely, her car wasn't outside work to begin with.

Well, this makes perfect sense, why move the car, it’s another part of the riddle that needs an answer.
Whittingstall Road is apparently a very quiet road as it bends at the bottom end. Here’s a what if:
Suzy’s not taken as she gets in her car, but has to stop just before the end of Whittingstall Road (at the quiet end). She’s annoying at being held up so gets out to see why the car in front has stopped.
At this point she’s taken and a second accomplice takes her car, abandoning it in Stevenage Road.
This fits with WJ, but adds the complexity of her abduction being a very carefully planned event.
Which of course it might well have been.

 

[WestLondoner]

If she - for reasons unknown - drove to 123SR to meet someone, she maybe pulled over to the kerb either because that person was waiting there or was parked there. The position of the car is consistent with someone stepping out of it for 15 seconds, perhaps to hold a conversation, with the intention of getting back in pdq. So the problem with this is that she would have had to be lured into some other vehicle, leaving her car like that - unlocked, misparked, valuables inside. This just doesn't seem likely.

The car's position is much more consistent with someone hurriedly dumping a vehicle that was not theirs, and that was potentially incriminating evidence. If it was dumped at 12.40, then SJL had already been abducted by then.

If she was taken near the office, then a reason to take the car too might be as Terry suggests - if you took her and left her car, then it's maybe in the middle of the road. It's going to cause an obstruction, get noticed and traced in minutes.

Whatever happened to her, the car needed to be nowhere nearby. Her car keys would have been used, and they'd have had the key fob, so houses for sale by Sturgis would have been recognisable as such to its driver.

I don't believe this is what happened, but just as a thought exercise, I can't recall ever seeing Suzy's case considered as a possible suicide.

Mick Jones (MJ) was the officer initially assigned that day and told DV that when he went to SJL's flat he kept the parents away in case she were found dead there.

‘We went to the flat. Her dad, Paul, was with us, yes,’ Mick agreed. ‘And you broke into her flat?’ ‘We did – we tried to keep her dad away, just in case we found the inevitable, though he wasn’t having any of it.’ Mick believed it was a possibility, at that stage, that Suzy might have simply gone home and committed suicide. ‘The inevitable’ meant a dead body.

Videcette, David. FINDING SUZY: The Hunt for Missing Estate Agent Suzy Lamplugh and 'Mr Kipper' (p. 91). DNA Books. Kindle Edition.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

If she - for reasons unknown - drove to 123SR to meet someone, she maybe pulled over to the kerb either because that person was waiting there or was parked there. The position of the car is consistent with someone stepping out of it for 15 seconds, perhaps to hold a conversation, with the intention of getting back in pdq. So the problem with this is that she would have had to be lured into some other vehicle, leaving her car like that - unlocked, misparked, valuables inside. This just doesn't seem likely.

The car's position is much more consistent with someone hurriedly dumping a vehicle that was not theirs, and that was potentially incriminating evidence. If it was dumped at 12.40, then SJL had already been abducted by then.

If she was taken near the office, then a reason to take the car too might be as Terry suggests - if you took her and left her car, then it's maybe in the middle of the road. It's going to cause an obstruction, get noticed and traced in minutes.

Whatever happened to her, the car needed to be nowhere nearby. Her car keys would have been used, and they'd have had the key fob, so houses for sale by Sturgis would have been recognisable as such to its driver.


Mick Jones (MJ) was the officer initially assigned that day and told DV that when he went to SJL's flat he kept the parents away in case she were found dead there.

‘We went to the flat. Her dad, Paul, was with us, yes,’ Mick agreed. ‘And you broke into her flat?’ ‘We did – we tried to keep her dad away, just in case we found the inevitable, though he wasn’t having any of it.’ Mick believed it was a possibility, at that stage, that Suzy might have simply gone home and committed suicide. ‘The inevitable’ meant a dead body.

Videcette, David. FINDING SUZY: The Hunt for Missing Estate Agent Suzy Lamplugh and 'Mr Kipper' (p. 91). DNA Books. Kindle Edition.

I don't know. I think it's quite possible Suzy could have quickly parked her car and jumped into a another vehicle. If it was a somewhat clandestine meeting and she just thought she was going to talk to the person for a few minutes, with her own car parked within view. If the other person unexpectedly drove off with her still in the car, it might even tie into what the jogger said about a woman laughing/screaming in a left-hand drive BMW. I'm not sure what time it was when the jogger supposedly saw that.

Of course that would completely shoot all potential Shorrolds Road sightings to pieces.

The funny thing about Stevenage Road is that despite being the site of a football stadium, it's basically just a small side road. When there isn't a football match going on it appears to be very quiet. If you were looking for a Sturgis property to place Suzy's car outside of, 123SR seems like somewhere you would probably have to know about in advance. I don't think you would just stumble upon it.

Thank you for the information about the search of Suzy's apartment. I was somewhat aware of that, but the clarification is useful. Would I be correct in thinking the search of Suzy's apartment happened before her car was found? It doesn't surprise me that all possibilities were considered in the immediate aftermath, but I was more wondering if suicide was ever considered a possibility in the long term, weeks or months after Suzy disappeared. I feel like that possibility would have been shot down in flames by Suzy's mother even if LE had seriously considered it.

 

[WestLondoner]

The car was found while the flat was being searched IIRC. The detective drove straight there from her flat.

There could indeed be some link with the BMW sighting but as you say it mullers the Shorrolds sightings. Also, the combination of BMW plus 37SR sighting is most of the police case against Cannan. If the Shorrolds sighting gets shot down, there is that much less reason to assume Cannan had anything to do with it. We have no description of the BMW driver, and she wasn't at 37SR with anyone never mind any "Kipper".

One sort of gets why they're so stuck on Cannan. It makes it look like they've, if not solved it, at least made progress.

I wonder what police thought if any went into the idea of an accomplice such as Taggart. He could have been an unwitting accessory perhaps, helpfully getting rid of cars for Cannan and asking no questions while the latter did some nebulous bit of villainy that he didn't discuss.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I'm not at all convinced about Cannan. He's a possibility, but that's about all I can say.

Whatever I might think about the different witnesses and their reliability, I don't see any evidence whatsoever of who actually did this. I can think of many scenarios for *what* happened, but the who is a mystery to me.

 

[RichardKimble]

I wonder if they can say it's JC because they can place him in the area but lacking as stated by the CPS that JC and SJL came together because of lack of witnesses, forensics etc.

 

[Terryb808]

I'm not at all convinced about Cannan. He's a possibility, but that's about all I can say.

Whatever I might think about the different witnesses and their reliability, I don't see any evidence whatsoever of who actually did this. I can think of many scenarios for *what* happened, but the who is a mystery to me.

If you believe what’s been printed in The Standard regarding another suspect, there’s more evidence against him than JC.
The article says that Diane Lamplugh confirmed that Steve Wright was on shore leave when Suzy disappeared and that this fact was in Suzy’s personal diary.
This diary had never been in the public domain, so this quote can’t be confirmed. Interestingly, Suzy’s brother Richard did ask that Steve Wright be investigated.
IMO there’s just as much (if not more) of a case for Steve Wright being the Prime Suspect as JC.

 

[Terryb808]

The ex-wife's story: My violent life with the Suffolk strangler- and

Thought I’d post the link in case anyone wanted to read it.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Assuming Suzy was abducted by a predator (or a pair of predators, such as John Duffy and David Mulcahy), rather than by a highly-organised group who abducted her for some strange and unknown reason, you can probably take your pick of any sex-offender who was in the area at the time. Where was Barry George in July 1986! (No, I'm not serious.)

I do think it's more likely to have been someone Suzy knew, because I do think it's probable she was really meeting someone. Of course she did know Steve Wright, and the chances that he first killed a woman in 2006 are slim.

 

[WestLondoner]

Diane Lamplugh confirmed that Steve Wright was on shore leave when Suzy disappeared and that this fact was in Suzy’s personal diary.
This diary had never been in the public domain, so this quote can’t be confirmed.

That is absolutely staggering if true!

 

[WestLondoner]

...you can probably take your pick of any sex-offender who was in the area at the time.

Agreed, and in fact I'd even broaden it out slightly. The suspect pool should clearly include rapists recently released from all nearby prisons, of which in 1986 there were three: the Scrubs, but also Wandsworth and Brixton.

These three prisons hold about 5% of the UK's 80,000 prison population, about 18% of the prison population is inside for some sort of SA, so about 0.05 x 0.18 x 80,000 = 720 of the inmates were in for a Cannan-like offence. If they do say 3.5 years each, then 205 such types (720 / 3.5) are released each year.

The pool should also include people from that area who weren't yet known to be offenders in 1986, but who became known as such later.

Given there are 4,000 rape convictions a year, and that about 1 in 25 of the UK population lived in that corner of London, the implication is that about 160 similar offenders from the area (50 million / 2 million x 4,000) were convicted over the following year alone; another 160 the next year; another 160 the next year; and so on.

The above numbers fit together roughly. If there are 4,000 pervs doing 3.5 years each, then at any given time, there would be 14,000 of them inside. The actual number is apparently 18% of 80,000, which is 14,400.

Suddenly you have to wonder how unique Cannan was given that there could have been 365 others locally who had his own offending background or would do within the year.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Even if Suzy's family (and the police) had always known about Steve Wright being mentioned in her diary, presumably it wasn't until he was arrested in 2006 that anyone even considered him a potential suspect.

Diane pushed the JC narrative, when she might have had Suzy's killer under her nose the entire time. That would be sad.

Is it bizarre for me to say I'd been so preoccupied with 123SR and 37SR, that I'd never actually looked at Whittingstall Road? It's so much like Gowan Avenue. Quiet, narrow, fairly non-descript. It would be so easy for something to happen with barely anyone noticing, just like with Jill Dando.

 

[Terryb808]

That is absolutely staggering if true!

It would provide another reason to withhold Suzy’s personal diary all this time. If it actually contained the name of her killer and the police ruled him out. Having then gone all out on JC as their prime suspect.
As any psychologist will tell you it’s unlikely that Steve Wright started offending that late in life. So was Suzy his first victim.
No proof, but can’t be ruled out.