UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #4

[fran]

I believe that Josh's hand condition may have been more from direct exposure to cold, rather than just wind-burn. He may have been handling snow (moving it, digging).

When Josh went on the alleged over-night camping trip with the boys, his time to actually hide the body may have been limited (because he couldn't leave the boys alone for too long). I believe he may have just thought if he placed her far enough away, they wouldn't find her.

When he was dumb-struck (imo) when he returned and found out Susan's disappearance had already been reported to LE and they started asking tough questions about where he'd been, he realized that if she was found he would be the first person they look at. After he left his kids at his sis' house, I believe he went back to the scene and either tried to bury her or as others have said, put her in a mine or cave. I say tried to bury her, because I'm not sure he would have been able to find an area where the ground wasn't already frozen. Whatever, I believe he did go back to CONCEAL the body.

I only hope he gets a conscience and comes forward and tells LE where she is.

JMHO
fran

PS..........I bet Josh is in shock since he's learned that Susan left written notes at her work. I bet he never saw that coming! If anything, imo, IF he does turn himself in, it will be because of the notes and he realizes there's no way he's going to get away with this. fran

 

[gliving]

Yep.

As a long time campfire expert and owner of two young campfire pyromaniacs, I can say it would be extremely difficult (impossible) to fully burn a body (even close) to ash in a campfire.

On the other hand, there are "gazillions" of places to dump, hide, or bury a body in Utah.

I choose the latter.

Me too sniperacer. Remember it was raining/snowing that night so things would be wet.

I'm just catching up after being gone a day. Isn't Jovanna a widow or single lady with children?

 

[fran]

I have to tell you that this case really has me. What I find disturbing is that their religion seems to be part of the central reason for their marriage problems, that and his controlling ways.

I have three single 20 something daughters. Two of them recently broke up with their long-time b/fs.(both just a few days before Thanksgiving) One of them, the reason for the break-up was religion. Wow! Coincidence and scary to me.

I really didn't think the religion thing should be that big of a deal. I was raised in a family where my dad didn't attend church but my siblings and I attended church with my mom. It was never a problem for us.

My daughter that broke up with her b/f because of religion was because it is a big deal to her and she can't see a real relationship unless the SO feels the same way. It's not that he didn't try, he honestly did. But he just can't get into it like her. Fortunately, they're both mature and level headed enough to realize that they can still remain friends. Of course she had a little difficulty at first and needed a complete break from him for a couple of weeks, but they're now talking and seeing each other when they get together with their mutual friends.

I guess we learn something new with each case.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

snipped and BBM

So your comment totally made me think of geocaching. For those that don't know geocaching is is an outdoor activity in which the participants use a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver or other navigational techniques to hide and seek containers anywhere in the world. If Josh was known to go camping frequently and in such remote locations, I would think he would have a handheld GPS or at least one in his car. If he had been planning this for a while there is a good possibility he could have searched out places to dump her body. Is it possible that Josh had a GPS that he saved certain campsites or places he has explored into?

I realize this may seem a bit out there, but there are groups of "geocachers" that have Murdery Mystery Events. THe first time I heard of this I thought oh know some sick serial killer is gonna use this as their calling card.

Actually, many of us here at Websleuths studied the geocaching when we were looking into the Groene murders in Idaho.

I can't recall the exact reason we thought the perp may have been doing it, but he did go off into far away places. He may have had some websites cached on his computer or something.

Just, fwiw,
fran

 

[Melanie]

smartblonde.....your post makes a lot of sense and I truly hope that is not the case. But most likely there was a campfire to convince the boys that went camping. This is all it takes in a kid's mind.....a fire and a night away with daddy.

Thinking out loud here. If he left at 12:30 AM; got wherever he went a couple hours later -- the children would most definitely be asleep. If mom was in the van - where was she. If already dead, the cadaver dogs should have picked up the smell. If she was poisoned, he would have to kill her first (before turning her into a s'more). I don't know - I'm straying away from the fire theory.

I'd like to know he transported her to and fro. Was she dead in the car? Did he just drop her off in the woods somewhere hoping she'd succumb to the elements? It would make sense for him to take the rental car back to the site and try to bury her then.

Whatever his plan was, I think we will see that he screwed up badly!

Mel

MOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[sniperacer]

snipped and BBM

So your comment totally made me think of geocaching. For those that don't know geocaching is is an outdoor activity in which the participants use a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver or other navigational techniques to hide and seek containers anywhere in the world. If Josh was known to go camping frequently and in such remote locations, I would think he would have a handheld GPS or at least one in his car. If he had been planning this for a while there is a good possibility he could have searched out places to dump her body. Is it possible that Josh had a GPS that he saved certain campsites or places he has explored into?

I realize this may seem a bit out there, but there are groups of "geocachers" that have Murdery Mystery Events. THe first time I heard of this I thought oh know some sick serial killer is gonna use this as their calling card.

I am a geocacher. On one hand, the geocach web site would be a great place too go to find cave and mine locations. Yet these would be known to other cachers. And geocach locations are heavily traveled.

If (a huge IF) he had a handheld GPS, it would be very dumb to mark a murdered body location with a waypoint. But all GPS's, when on, usually tracks it's movement (internal data loop) and the user can choose to save or not save GPS tracks.

Same as a rental car company GPS. It sounds like the rental company chose not to save the GPS tracking data? BUT, IF (again a big IF) LE got to the car GPS quick enough, the temporary internal track could be recovered. But as I said, the data usually loops and will be over-written as time / travel goes on.

TMI obout GPS's?

 

[fran]

This is pretty much a recap, has a video of profiler Pat Brown talking about Josh, but you should read the comment left by: sean56v December 23, 2009 9:39 AM EST in the comment section...Things that make you go hmmmm I wonder who that person is:

************************************************************************************

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/23/earlyshow/main6013505.shtml

The comment was gone when I checked.

fran

 

[fran]

All he could talk about was buying a cell phone and new clothes.
and NOT his missing wife of 8 years!

This is why so many people have compared him to Scott Peterson. He seems to have a complete disconnect to reality.

I think Pat Brown said it best. "He doesn't know how he's supposed to act."

JMHO
fran

 

[burbqueen]

I have to tell you that this case really has me. What I find disturbing is that their religion seems to be part of the central reason for their marriage problems, that and his controlling ways.

I have three single 20 something daughters. Two of them recently broke up with their long-time b/fs.(both just a few days before Thanksgiving) One of them, the reason for the break-up was religion. Wow! Coincidence and scary to me.

I really didn't think the religion thing should be that big of a deal. I was raised in a family where my dad didn't attend church but my siblings and I attended church with my mom. It was never a problem for us.

My daughter that broke up with her b/f because of religion was because it is a big deal to her and she can't see a real relationship unless the SO feels the same way. It's not that he didn't try, he honestly did. But he just can't get into it like her. Fortunately, they're both mature and level headed enough to realize that they can still remain friends. Of course she had a little difficulty at first and needed a complete break from him for a couple of weeks, but they're now talking and seeing each other when they get together with their mutual friends.

I guess we learn something new with each case.

JMHO
fran

OMG Fran, thank you so much!!!

That's what I've been saying all along. Not trying to throw someones religion under the bus at all. But many have shot me down and try to dismiss the idea that religion played a part cause it makes them feel uncomfortable for some reason. This is not a condemnation of religion, just an observation.

The issue is that for various religions you cannot have a divided household. For catholics, baptist, lutherans, methodist etc. you can can just one parent going to church and the other not that interested. Mom or dad takes the kiddies to church faithfully while the other parent stays home.

That is typical in most mainstream religions, but I know for a fact that in various sects that is a huge issue when your spouse strays away from the faith. It can truely break up a marriage when you feel abandoned in the faith so to speak. Also, the kids may suffer too. One parent wants them to be raised in the church and the other may not. So what do you do? That's why a divided household sometimes cannot stand. I know as a JW it can be grounds for divorce and your fellow members feel sorry for you when a spouse stops coming to meetings.

Either way poor Susan I believe was over her head with JP and probably knew it. She was trying to get out IMO, but something happened.

 

[Texas Mist]

Thinking out loud here. If he left at 12:30 AM; got wherever he went a couple hours later -- the children would most definitely be asleep. If mom was in the van - where was she. If already dead, the cadaver dogs should have picked up the smell. If she was poisoned, he would have to kill her first (before turning her into a s'more). I don't know - I'm straying away from the fire theory.

I'd like to know he transported her to and fro. Was she dead in the car? Did he just drop her off in the woods somewhere hoping she'd succumb to the elements? It would make sense for him to take the rental car back to the site and try to bury her then.

Whatever his plan was, I think we will see that he screwed up badly!

Mel

MOOOOOOOOOOO

I know wife-killers have hauled their bodies for miles before, but it's really not that common from the cases I've read....most bodies are found close to home....I can't see Joshy wanting to drive a body for hundreds of miles.

What if he went somewhere close during the 5-ish til 8:30pm timeframe to prepare a place for the body - or scout it out to be sure it would be safe to take one to that place? (for some reason I believe it's related to water...IDK why.) He could have gotten the windburn/frostbite at this time doing his 'prep work'.

Then he returns to the house around 8:30, puts the kids to bed, waits til they are sleeping (and maybe even Susan is sleeping) and does the dirty deed.

He is very nervous & in his haste to lock or unlock the van, he hits the wrong button & the alarm sounds. Puts Susan in the back, goes back into the house to get the sleeping boys, one at a time, making sure he doesn't wake them.

He drives off into the nite w/ the boys still asleep, takes Susan to the site he picked out earlier, and his hands get even more damaged.....then he drives away still nervous about what he's done....he drives & drives & drives -- no place in particular....pulls over to sleep in an isolated area & when the boys wake them up he tells them they are camping.

JMOOOC as I've been thinking of scenarios that would explain him leaving the house 2x, putting the body close to him, and explain being gone for 17 hours.

 

[swa]

Wow . . . haven't seen this story before . . . .

1. Wife is Missing
2. Husband Shows No Interest in Finding Her
3. Husband's Family has no clue why HE would be considered a suspect
4. Wife's friends start relaying information about her desire to leave the marriage.

When are these fools going to realize that maybe it's just a better idea to go ahead and get a divorce?

 

[Dal Gal]

The comment was gone when I checked.

fran

Fran go to the next page, page 8. At 7:38 someone snipped the original into their comment.

 

[Texas Mist]

FWIW - there's a comment here that says, to paraphrase, that Josh is indeed a chip off the ol' block


8:28 a.m. Dec. 23, 2009
http://www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/705353538/Mystery-haunts-Susan-Powells-friend.html

 

[kiki the parrot]

Another thought -- 1st degree burns from being too close to a fire would look similar to windburn.

I had the most horrific thought... HE BURNED HER BODY.

This would explain:

* His 'camping trip'. What is the one thing every night-time camping trip needs? A campfire.

* What would you need to make S'mores, like he claimed they made? A campfire.

* His 'frost bitten' hands, or 'wind-burned' hands, or 'chemical-burned' hands?
Probably just burned hands, period. Put your hands too close to a campfire, they become singed. Especially when you have to keep stoking the fire.

* This would also explain the lengthy amount of time he and 'his boys' (who I'm sure slept through the night in the minivan) spent 'camping'. I've read it takes several hours to burn a body beyond recognition.

* It has bothered me, his seeming lack of concern (imo) that her body will be found, and this could explain why. There may not be a body anymore. Just bits of charred bone fragments, in a campfire pit somewhere.

* This could be why their 4 year old thinks they went camping- they actually did. I wonder if the little boy remembers a camp fire burning all night, and most of the morning?

* Many of us believe there is a little bit of truth in every lie a sociopath tells... why did he say he took the boys camping? Because in a way, he did. Why bring up S'mores? To explain the campfire.

Now, I'm wondering about the generator, too. Would the generator run a power-saw? A dismembered body would be easier to handle, and also burn a bit more quickly...

I also wonder if he may have smelled of campfire smoke (or thought he did) when he got back from his camping trip? Maybe he said that about the S'mores to give a reasonable explaination as to why he smelled like smoke. But, then again, what is a camping trip at night without a campfire?

(It's the middle of the nigfht, I'm alone at work, and now I'm scared).

omg ! ! ! the creep factor is just off the chart already this am.. I mean can ya wait til I've finished my first cup of coffee this is just over the top geez...

if only it were some ghoulish movie and not actually a morbid possibility in real life

arrot:

 

[Texas Mist]

<snip>

Former FBI Profiler Cliff Van Zandt Finds Too Many Oddities In Josh Powell's Behavior, Unexplained Miles On Powell's Rental Car

Headlining a gaggle of Utah stories published on December 22nd, 2009 about the case of missing West Valley City woman Susan Powell is a report from KSL Channel 5 that former FBI profiler Cliff Van Zandt has weighed in. On the Today show, Van Zandt said this case reminds him of two other missing women cases, one of which is that of the wife of former police officer Drew Peterson. Van Zandt said Josh's behavior is the opposite of what he would expect from a husband whose wife is missing, and the issue of the rental car also begs more questions.

"We know, of course, he's now the primary caretaker of two young children, but one would think most of his activities would be centered around the house or trying to help law enforcement," Van Zandt said. "If that vehicle's been driven hundreds of miles, where might he have gone? And could that have anything to do with his wife's disappearance?"



more here (but not much else we haven't heard)

http://voice-of-deseret.blogspot.com/2009/12/former-fbi-profiler-cliff-van-zandt.html

 

[kiki the parrot]

I have to tell you that this case really has me. What I find disturbing is that their religion seems to be part of the central reason for their marriage problems, that and his controlling ways.

I have three single 20 something daughters. Two of them recently broke up with their long-time b/fs.(both just a few days before Thanksgiving) One of them, the reason for the break-up was religion. Wow! Coincidence and scary to me.

I really didn't think the religion thing should be that big of a deal. I was raised in a family where my dad didn't attend church but my siblings and I attended church with my mom. It was never a problem for us.

My daughter that broke up with her b/f because of religion was because it is a big deal to her and she can't see a real relationship unless the SO feels the same way. It's not that he didn't try, he honestly did. But he just can't get into it like her. Fortunately, they're both mature and level headed enough to realize that they can still remain friends. Of course she had a little difficulty at first and needed a complete break from him for a couple of weeks, but they're now talking and seeing each other when they get together with their mutual friends.

I guess we learn something new with each case.

JMHO
fran

OMG Fran, thank you so much!!!

That's what I've been saying all along. Not trying to throw someones religion under the bus at all. But many have shot me down and try to dismiss the idea that religion played a part cause it makes them feel uncomfortable for some reason. This is not a condemnation of religion, just an observation.

The issue is that for various religions you cannot have a divided household. For catholics, baptist, lutherans, methodist etc. you can can just one parent going to church and the other not that interested. Mom or dad takes the kiddies to church faithfully while the other parent stays home.

That is typical in most mainstream religions, but I know for a fact that in various sects that is a huge issue when your spouse strays away from the faith. It can truely break up a marriage when you feel abandoned in the faith so to speak. Also, the kids may suffer too. One parent wants them to be raised in the church and the other may not. So what do you do? That's why a divided household sometimes cannot stand. I know as a JW it can be grounds for divorce and your fellow members feel sorry for you when a spouse stops coming to meetings.

Either way poor Susan I believe was over her head with JP and probably knew it. She was trying to get out IMO, but something happened.

Heavy, deep bird sigh... just wanna say it's known, among Christian believers anyway, as being unequally yoked but I truly believe the reason Susan became a victim of her husband has far less to do w the particular denominational differences or even doctrines and IMO everything to do w pathology, overall mental health ie personality disorder, authenticity and level of commitment to one's values and beliefs, and a host of other things including whether or not there is agreement w/in the marriage. Wherever two people are in agreement--re w/e lifestyle, values, principles and priorities they genuinely accept etc--they stand a good chance of staying together and avoiding continual conflicts. And where there is deception there is sure to be continual conflict.

Hoping everyone can kinda stay focused on Susan today--on the fact that she married a very unbalanced, likely NPD (and probably sociopathic) shell of a man who's functioned on a superficial level, while concealing some extremely UNhealthy, dark parts that appear to stem from some disturbing generational patterns...which has little to do w "religious" differences IMO, and far more to do w he is one twisted SOB. Sorry please don't throw anything, just trying to stay focused here. JMO

:computer:

arrot:

 

[seattle_slew]

I believe Josh did not go into any high country. High country is anything East of I-15. I lived in SLC for 24 years and know the terrain and the drivability factor in the Winter.

He would have been concerned about getting stuck on mud or ice and snow in his van. I hope they are asking friends and church members where they may have gone in the past on church outings etc. Or even reviewed mapquest etc type of searches he may have done on various computers he had access to.

He may have gone to areas out by Delta or even North by the Golden Spike National park. It's very isolated there but still accessible. And there are many turn offs by the road where he could have moved her for a distance from the road.

I have been lurking on this site for some time since this story breaks my heart to hear about. I am only 30 minutes from where he is now in Puyallup.

My parents broke up over Mormon vs Greek orthodox differences while I lived in Utah. So I understand the motivations in this situation. I saw it many times in the years I lived in SLC, for the early 60s to the 80s. I also hope the counseling that has been discussed was more than just the lay counselors in the Church. Typically if someone like this couple didn't have money, they would tend to stay in the church counseling venue. Those counselors are by no means unbiased in their take on these type of situations. The Church is male centered and if nothing appeared to be life threatening, my opinion is, they would have counseled her to "pray and fast" to seek the right answer.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Welcome to WS, Seattle :wave: we're neighbors

arrot:

 

[nervous_nellie]

I read that Josh & Susan were married in the Portland Temple...From what I've read, a couple (and those attending) must have a temple recommend. ( http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/mormon/weddings/ )

So if Josh had to have a temple recommend for a temple wedding did he lose it?

when my bil was married in the temple none of the people that were invited were allowed to see the wedding we had to wait in the waiting area. i am not lds but my husbands family is. and all of the other family members except me are lds and they couldnt go in either, but iirc the grooms father had lost his temple privileges too...thats all i know about that wasnt one of susans requirements that he regain his temple pass? so i would think that you can earn it back, tho i have no idea how...

 

[DomCasual]

I read that Josh & Susan were married in the Portland Temple...From what I've read, a couple (and those attending) must have a temple recommend. ( http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/mormon/weddings/ )

So if Josh had to have a temple recommend for a temple wedding did he lose it?

That's right. He would have had to have one to get married there. I haven't read that he'd lost it, but I guess it's likely. Church attendance is one of the requirements for keeping it.