VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[Atlantica]

For those who are interested, I just returned from Mark's funeral. Around 100 people attended, mostly church and community members. It was soooo hot standing in the sun, 85 degrees. A cousin of mine, who is close to Mark's mother, nearly passed out and had to be taken to the shade. A few minutes later, an elderly man fainted. The service had to be held outside because, sadly, they were unable to embalm the body, and even though the casket was sealed, there were concerns...

All the regional media were there in force. I have some photos I will post later, as well as the memory cards that were distributed today and last night at the funeral home. I did not attend last night but was told that a screening of a memorial video played in the room adjoining the area where the casket lay.

 

[JoeFromLB]

The main reason I'm posting this is that there seems to be a public relations effort by some people associated with the "horrorcore" movement to portray themselves and their "music" as innocent and make-believe, and not at all intended to provoke violence. In other words, they are just having some "fun" and there's nothing more sinister to it than that.

This is disturbing stuff.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=99021159&blogId=497407410

EXCERPT:
First thing i want too address (which will also be addressed on my new record) Is this ongoing spurt of "Satanic Rap" / "Satanism" in the underground scene. Let me first address this by stating my experience in the world of the occult in a list of experience and affiliation. In my 10+ Years of being involved in the Occult I have :

1. Attended & Helped Conduct Two Traditional Theistic Satanic Masses

2. Attended & Conducted Three Traditional Theistic Satanic Baptisms

3. Performed / Conducted Lavey's "Invocation To The Conjuration Of Destruction"

4. Performed / Conducted "Invocation To The Conjuration Of Lust"...


excerpt:
This what i feel differs me from Any other in the Underground. Despite what people may say or think, my musick goes beyond "Shock Value" *Though it IS Evident that shock value is used at times for marketing and entertainment it is not my main goal or concentration.

 

[ziggy]

I think the blogger is right - bad parenting decisions for sure.

Look, you can pass this Horrorcore stuff off as stupid and moronic, but that is really lazy imo. It's dangerous. It's spiritually dangerous if nothing else and it seriously lowers one's incoming earning potential in adulthood.

I think I would pack up and move to Montana and not have a computer if my kid was into that sick, twisted and dangerous mind set.

It's not a stretch to think that these kinds of kids end up on drugs and in trouble with the law. It can't be good for them - there is no good that comes of Satan worship and trying to be feel all powerful through deviance.

Edited to add: I also believe that when one tries to go further toward the light, the dark forces get angy and stronger. In my own opinion ONLY, I feel Mark was under seige through his daughter and didn't know what to do. It is a confusing relationship being the divorced dad and I can sympathize with their situation concerning Emma.

 

[Atlantica]

Gene, and others who recall my post concerning the parental dilemma when a child strays into a potentially-dangerous subculture -- two days ago I copied and pasted that post into an email and sent it to our local radio station here, which has a morning show and is of course discussing the crime.

Today they read my email online, and I think most people, in the end, agree with my argument.

www.wlni.com broadcasts "The Morning Line" via internet each morning from 6-9 est. For those who would like a truly local perspective, I recommend tuning in.

 

[Atlantica]

I came across this religious blog which basically states what was argued here earlier in this thread. The blogger does not believe that the parents did the right thing by taking the kids to the concert and says that it was "Bad Parenting" etc. But what is more interesting is the comments. Several commenters disagree with the blogger. This is only for those who want to explore that debate further:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/09/bad-parenting-and-the-horrorco.html

The blogger is full of horse****. I find it very interesting that those who are judging the Niederbrock/Kelley/Wells families the harshest -- are Christians.

Not surprised, mind you. But it is very, very interesting. And telling.

 

[JoeFromLB]

Gene, and others who recall my post concerning the parental dilemma when a child strays into a potentially-dangerous subculture -- two days ago I copied and pasted that post into an email and sent it to our local radio station here, which has a morning show and is of course discussing the crime.

Today they read my email online, and no matter what ignorant, judgmental bloggers or uninformed/naive posters here say, I think most people, in the end, agree with my argument.

www.wlni.com broadcasts "The Morning Line" via internet each morning from 6-9 est. For those who would like a truly local perspective, I recommend tuning in.

We can all agree to disagree on this issue. There are strong opinions and reasoned arguments across the spectrum. People who disagree with a certain point of view are not necessarily "ignorant, judgmental, or uninformed/naive". All points of view should be welcomed here, within reason, of course.

One thing is clear, however. The activities these two poor girls were involved in were hardly part of normal teenage "growing pains" or garden-variety teenage rebellion. There's a terrifying and dark world of the occult out there that no human being should have anything to do with, ever!

 

[Atlantica]

We can all agree to disagree on this issue. There are strong opinions and reasoned arguments across the spectrum. People who disagree with a certain point of view are not necessarily "ignorant, judgmental, or uninformed/naive". All points of view should be welcomed here, within reason, of course.

One thing is clear, however. The activities these two poor girls were involved in were hardly part of normal teenage "growing pains" or garden-variety teenage rebellion. There's a terrifying and dark world of the occult out there that no human being should have anything to do with, ever!

Are you saying that those who label the parents as failures, or anything else than what they ACTUALLY WERE (good parents) are NOT judging???

Clarify your statements.

 

[majikposhun]

Gene, and others who recall my post concerning the parental dilemma when a child strays into a potentially-dangerous subculture -- two days ago I copied and pasted that post into an email and sent it to our local radio station here, which has a morning show and is of course discussing the crime.

Today they read my email online, and no matter what ignorant, judgmental bloggers or uninformed/naive posters here say, I think most people, in the end, agree with my argument.

www.wlni.com broadcasts "The Morning Line" via internet each morning from 6-9 est. For those who would like a truly local perspective, I recommend tuning in.

I agree Atlantica - you should not and cannot judge the people or the situation. We do not know exactly what went on with Emma and her parents and it surely is no place for others to judge those that were murdered.

Being a parent is the most difficult thing I have personally done - and I have done a lot of "difficult" things. Raising a teenager and going through a divorce is clearly onerous.

Speculate all you want - but to call someone a bad parent for wanting to keep their child safe and happy by driving them to the concert - is not what I consider to be bad at all - and besides we just don't know what happened when they came back to VA. The parents were most likely not going to allow Mr. Syko to stay at the house - and perhaps that is what started the downward spiral. Again - we just don't know!

 

[majikposhun]

One thing is clear, however. The activities these two poor girls were involved in were hardly part of normal teenage "growing pains" or garden-variety teenage rebellion. There's a terrifying and dark world of the occult out there that no human being should have anything to do with, ever!

I beg to differ - it is all typical teenager behavior - I think they were really naive to the culture they were trying to relate to.

 

[majikposhun]

I write and speak based on experience with kids who have ventured into realms such as this - who are in my family - who had Christian parents who chose to turn a somewhat blind eye and decided to just pray about it instead.

My credentials? Yours? I don't require credentials to have an opinion here as I am not dispensing advice and I believe I made it clear these views were my opinion only, but perhaps in your zeal to attack you overlooked that.

In regards to citation, I'm sure there are differing opinions from various professionals on how to handle a situation like this and I'm pretty sure they aren't all exactly like yours.

I don't fancy myself a Christian really, but in looking to prevention for other parents who may be facing a similar situation, judging these actions may serve a purpose in that respect. It is not unusual for PEOPLE, regardless of religious belief to look at a situation and Monday morning quarterback. I think that's how we come to a decision on how we might handle something similar in our own lives. If someone is saved by judging the actions of these parents and making an alternative choice, then that would be a good thing.

I don't mean to dispariage the dead. These are not easy times to be raising children in. I feel for them. I also think it's important to have a truthful discussion about this without an emotional meltdown.

Thank you for this post Ziggy - I agree that we should look at this situation and learn from - but do not agree that we should place judgement on the parents when we do not know the circumstances surrounding their decisions.

 

[tapu]

Thank you for this post Ziggy - I agree that we should look at this situation and learn from - but do not agree that we should place judgement on the parents when we do not know the circumstances surrounding their decisions.

I disagree. If I want to pull together all I've read so far, and form an opinion and state it, about what may have gone on in these families and in this situation, then I can express that opinion. If you don't like it, you can disagree with it. What I think is not okay, is telling people they don't have the cred to have an opinion.

 

[ziggy]

Let's take this down a notch by distinguishing bad parents from bad decisions.

Good parents are capable of making a few bad choices. Not all of them end in this kind of disaster.

In my opinions stated here I don't label them as bad parents at all. How they handled this particular situation likely got them killed and so that's why we study it with a little more scrutiny - because of these horrific murders. 4 people lost their lives!

It's true that they allowed Syko Sam to be with their daughter. It's true they may not have condoned horrorcore, those associated with it or the concert, but they were complicit in seeing that their young daughter would attend this concert with other "kids" that were actually adults.

It's just odd. I have no idea what would lead them to these decisions, but in my opinion only, it begs the questions why. Tell me why they decided to deal with horrorcore and Emma in this way. Enlighten me! Maybe then I'll consider that it was the right decision but in light of the way it turned out...well...

Sure, easy to criticize now, I know. But hindsight can affect our foresight if we would only open our eyes and choose to see.

Good parents can make choices that have bad consequences. I won't ever say they were bad parents because that's too broad. I'll distill it down to this one issue and hopefully we can agree to keep the focus on that.

 

[majikposhun]

I disagree. If I want to pull together all I've read so far, and form an opinion and state it, about what may have gone on in these families and in this situation, then I can express that opinion. If you don't like it, you can disagree with it. What I think is not okay, is telling people they don't have the cred to have an opinion.

Tapu - An opinion is an opinion - and I am not saying I don't agree with stating your opinion. For example: My opinion is that the parents should not have allowed Emma to go the the concert PERIOD or allow an almost stranger to stay in their home, I believe they used bad judgement in this situation.

Placing judgement upon someone is completely different. For example - Emma's parents are bad parents.

Does this make any sense?

 

[ziggy]

Plus, let's remember that Atlantica is close to the family. It's a very hard position to be in. We want to hear about what's going on but because we are a discussion board, we'll talk about various aspects. I can see how that would be upsetting and it's a canundrum.

Atlantica, I apoligize for anything that upset you. I hope you realize that I think it is awful that this happened and that the people you know are good people - I don't doubt that and that's what makes it so upsetting you know?

I do think it might be important to find out if kids being in this sub culture is dangerous enough for people to take note.

 

[Bee Happy]

I'm ****ing sick of editing or deleting attacks on other posters. The next one I see gets a permanent ban. Just try me.

Thank you. I think it's ridiculous. :twocents:

 

[JoeFromLB]

Are you saying that those who label the parents as failures, or anything else than what they ACTUALLY WERE (good parents) are NOT judging???

Clarify your statements.

You've made a judgment right there in labeling them "good parents". That's a value judgment.

Just for the sake of argument, what would you think about the suspect's parents who allegedly allowed their son to become heavily involved in the horrorcore movement at the tender age of ten? According to his sister, quoted in an article posted elsewhere on this thread, he has been an avid devotee of this horrible cult since 1999. Was it right for them to provide him with a computer, internet access, and permit him to plaster the walls of his room with disgusting images of death and gore? Who gave him the money to finance his "hobby"? I always thought parents should have some control over their ten-year old children. Does that make me "judgmental"?

Actually, to get to your objection, I don't think it's helpful to either blame the parents or praise them. In fact, they should not be the focus at all. The public is not privy to the entire history of the family relationships.
Some children from reputedly "good" parents have grown up and done horrible things, murder, rob, you name it. Conversely, children from "bad" parents have gone on to contribute greatly to the world. And vice-versa. It's sometimes hard to pinpoint the causes of a child's descent into a life of crime.

The only point I was trying to make is that posters who might disagree with your point of view are not necessarily ignorant or naive. They merely disagree. There are strong opinions in a case like this that touches the fears and worries of parents with teenage children.

I might also add that "judging", per se, is often a good thing. We make judgments all the time about the rightness or wrongness of certain actions.
That's the realm of conscience. Parents also have to make judgments about the people and activities their children are involved with; and sometimes they make arguably "bad" decisions, and yes, could even be said to engage in "bad parenting". There are certain minimum standards of parenting, I believe, though not everyone agrees on how rigorous their duties should be.

But I would think such public discussions are not very helpful, or even prudent at this time, as some of the parents involved are hurt and grieving.

 

[Atlantica]

Plus, let's remember that Atlantica is close to the family. It's a very hard position to be in. We want to hear about what's going on but because we are a discussion board, we'll talk about various aspects. I can see how that would be upsetting and it's a canundrum.

Atlantica, I apoligize for anything that upset you. I hope you realize that I think it is awful that this happened and that the people you know are good people - I don't doubt that and that's what makes it so upsetting you know?

I do think it might be important to find out if kids being in this sub culture is dangerous enough for people to take note.

Platitudes and people who have ****uninformed*** opinions are what stand on my last nerve. I realize not everyone lives a life where opinions are not quite good enough (i.e., in the academic world you must back up everything point you want to make, which, personally, I think is a great idea). If one cannot back up one's statements, then doesn't it all descend to gossip? What are platitudes really worth to the rest of you, anyway? And moderator, is it inappropriate to refer to someone's beliefs as naive, when clearly that is what they are??

In this particular case, yes, I can back up what I state -- I am not only fairly close to the case, but I went through an experience strikingly similar to that of the families involved -- thankfully, we all lived to tell the tale. But it is having been in those trenches -- walked in that valley of the shadow of death -- that makes my statements valid, as opposed to hyperbole and platitude, which seems to be in abundance not only here, but elsewhere.

I realize it is human nature to step in and say, well, that's not how I'd handle it, or that could never happen to me. But shouldn't people expressing opinions try a little harder than that? What are the expectations here with regard to rhetorical devices?

 

[JoeFromLB]

Let's take this down a notch by distinguishing bad parents from bad decisions.

Good parents are capable of making a few bad choices. Not all of them end in this kind of disaster.

In my opinions stated here I don't label them as bad parents at all. How they handled this particular situation likely got them killed and so that's why we study it with a little more scrutiny - because of these horrific murders. 4 people lost their lives!

It's true that they allowed Syko Sam to be with their daughter. It's true they may not have condoned horrorcore, those associated with it or the concert, but they were complicit in seeing that their young daughter would attend this concert with other "kids" that were actually adults.

It's just odd. I have no idea what would lead them to these decisions, but in my opinion only, it begs the questions why. Tell me why they decided to deal with horrorcore and Emma in this way. Enlighten me! Maybe then I'll consider that it was the right decision but in light of the way it turned out...well...

Sure, easy to criticize now, I know. But hindsight can affect our foresight if we would only open our eyes and choose to see.

Good parents can make choices that have bad consequences. I won't ever say they were bad parents because that's too broad. I'll distill it down to this one issue and hopefully we can agree to keep the focus on that.

Very well stated!

 

[Atlantica]

You've made a judgment right there in labeling them "good parents". That's a value judgment.

Just for the sake of argument, what would you think about the suspect's parents who allegedly allowed their son to become heavily involved in the horrorcore movement at the tender age of ten? According to his sister, quoted in an article posted elsewhere on this thread, he has been an avid devotee of this horrible cult since 1999. Was it right for them to provide him with a computer, internet access, and permit him to plaster the walls of his room with disgusting images of death and gore? Who gave him the money to finance his "hobby"? I always thought parents should have some control over their ten-year old children. Does that make me "judgmental"?

Actually, to get to your objection, I don't think it's helpful to either blame the parents or praise them. In fact, they should not be the focus at all. The public is not privy to the entire history of the family relationships.
Some children from reputedly "good" parents have grown up and done horrible things, murder, rob, you name it. Conversely, children from "bad" parents have gone on to contribute greatly to the world. And vice-versa. It's sometimes hard to pinpoint the causes of a child's descent into a life of crime.

The only point I was trying to make is that posters who might disagree with your point of view are not necessarily ignorant or naive. They merely disagree. There are strong opinions in a case like this that touches the fears and worries of parents with teenage children.

I might also add that "judging", per se, is often a good thing. We make judgments all the time about the rightness or wrongness of certain actions.
That's the realm of conscience. Parents also have to make judgments about the people and activities their children are involved with; and sometimes they make arguably "bad" decisions, and yes, could even be said to engage in "bad parenting". There are certain minimum standards of parenting, I believe, though not everyone agrees on how rigorous their duties should be.

But I would think such public discussions are not very helpful, or even prudent at this time, as some of the parents involved are hurt and grieving.

To simply disagree or blurt out platitudes (which are not the most helpful in any situation), at least in enlightened circles, just isn't enough. Do you agree that those engaged in discussion should take it up a notch or so? Reasoned argument perhaps backed up by life experience/professional experience/education?

Are all opinions equal??? Really?? If so, then why not visit a hobbyist dentist who pumps gas for a living?

 

[Atlantica]

Let's take this down a notch by distinguishing bad parents from bad decisions.

Good parents are capable of making a few bad choices. Not all of them end in this kind of disaster.

In my opinions stated here I don't label them as bad parents at all. How they handled this particular situation likely got them killed and so that's why we study it with a little more scrutiny - because of these horrific murders. 4 people lost their lives!

It's true that they allowed Syko Sam to be with their daughter. It's true they may not have condoned horrorcore, those associated with it or the concert, but they were complicit in seeing that their young daughter would attend this concert with other "kids" that were actually adults.

It's just odd. I have no idea what would lead them to these decisions, but in my opinion only, it begs the questions why. Tell me why they decided to deal with horrorcore and Emma in this way. Enlighten me! Maybe then I'll consider that it was the right decision but in light of the way it turned out...well...

Sure, easy to criticize now, I know. But hindsight can affect our foresight if we would only open our eyes and choose to see.

Good parents can make choices that have bad consequences. I won't ever say they were bad parents because that's too broad. I'll distill it down to this one issue and hopefully we can agree to keep the focus on that.

As has been discussed **ad nauseum** earlier in this thread -- they took the decision to accompany Emma and tolerate the strange friends in order to protect her from herself. SOME of us know from first hand experience that determined teenagers will find any means of pursuing their interests, even if it means lying, hiding, sneaking out, running away, and more. Families in these situations are literally forced into the subculture with the kids, unless they want to chain them to their beds, or just let them run wild. You try this, then that, and many other things, anything, just to make it better. Only time and maturity will end it. Emma's parents lost their lives trying to protect their child.
Any parent who has been through this knows the deal. It ought to be obvious to everyone else, but apparently that is not the case.