VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[JoeFromLB]

Platitudes and people who have ****uninformed*** opinions are what stand on my last nerve. I realize not everyone lives a life where opinions are not quite good enough (i.e., in the academic world you must back up everything point you want to make, which, personally, I think is a great idea). If one cannot back up one's statements, then doesn't it all descend to gossip? What are platitudes really worth to the rest of you, anyway? And moderator, is it inappropriate to refer to someone's beliefs as naive, when clearly that is what they are??

In this particular case, yes, I can back up what I state -- I am not only fairly close to the case, but I went through an experience strikingly similar to that of the families involved -- thankfully, we all lived to tell the tale. But it is having been in those trenches -- walked in that valley of the shadow of death -- that makes my statements valid, as opposed to hyperbole and platitude, which seems to be in abundance not only here, but elsewhere.

I realize it is human nature to step in and say, well, that's not how I'd handle it, or that could never happen to me. But shouldn't people expressing opinions try a little harder than that? What are the expectations here with regard to rhetorical devices?

I was under the impression this was an open discussion forum, where differing points of view are presented from all sorts of individual posters with different beliefs, backgrounds, and perspectives.

I don't think the opinions posted here need to be subject to the same exacting standards as a doctoral dissertation would.

If you believe the religious blogger referenced above is "judgmental" or "naive", well then, you are entitled to your belief. But that doesn't make someone else's opinion "invalid" if it's influenced by religious beliefs, or if they don't happen to have the same degree of connection to the people in the case, or the same level of academic experience.
That's part of the whole give-and-take of a discussion forum.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is necessarily engaging in "hyperbole" and "platitudes".

You're as much a part of this forum as anyone else, I would hope. Just because a poster might express a different, even religious point of view, or make a personal judgment about parenting doesn't make his point of view objectionable and completely discountable. I only bring up this issue because I sense a certain animosity (perhaps that's too a strong a word, and if so, I'm sorry) in some of your previous postings towards religious believers and Christians in particular.

Even though I don't agree with you on all your points, I value your opinion, and especially your personal experience as one who is closer to the people involved than many others here.
I think the many readers of this forum can make their own judgments on the different opinions presented, and come to whatever conclusions they wish.

I would hope the moderators distinguish between spirited discussion and explicit personal attacks. I would never be in favor of the latter. If I've offended in any way, I would hope to be warned before being banned. This is a great forum and I've really enjoyed my time here, and have learned a lot from everyone.

 

[NativeGirl]

Slain pastor mourned at graveside service
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/FARMGAT24_20090924-062601/295167/

Horrorcore rap artist alerted police to slayings suspect
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/horrorcore_rap_artist_alerted_police_to_slayings_suspect/295213/


A service for Kelley and Emma Niederbrock tentatively is scheduled for Oct. 3 at Farmville United Methodist Church at 1 p.m. In Inwood, W.Va., a service will be held tomorrow at 6 p.m. for Melanie Grace Wells, 18, at the South Berkeley Chapel of the Brown Funeral Home.

 

[JoeFromLB]

To simply disagree or blurt out platitudes (which are not the most helpful in any situation), at least in enlightened circles, just isn't enough. Do you agree that those engaged in discussion should take it up a notch or so? Reasoned argument perhaps backed up by life experience/professional experience/education?

Are all opinions equal??? Really?? If so, then why not visit a hobbyist dentist who pumps gas for a living?

What do you mean exactly by "enlightened circles"? I would guess you may be referring to the world of professional pychology, as opposed to perhaps the "unenlightened" views of religious believers, e.g., Christians. Perhaps I'm making an unwarranted assumption here. And dentists are held to a much higher standard of competence than a person on a message board expressing an opinion about the people involved in this case. The two areas are apples and oranges. Psychology also does not necessarily have a monopoly on Truth. There is plenty of disagreement as to the effectiveness of psychology and psychiatry.

All opinions are equal insofar as they are allowed a place on this public forum, within reason, of course. If someone were to come on here, e.g., and advocate serial killing as a good thing, well, I would hope that account would be immediately banned.

But differences of background and perspective are hardly censored here, and I would hope even a religious point of view would be allowed expression. We can all agree at some point to disagree.

 

[Gene]

I found Sam McCroskey's case records. There are currently four of them: Murder (apparently of M. Niederbrock), Robbery (apparently MNs wallet), Grand Larceny (apparently MN's car) and Misdemeanor (apparently the summons for driving without a license). I am uploading the screengrab only for the murder...

One interesting bit....the offense date of the first three case records is listed as 17 September, while the offense date for the misdemeanor is listed as 18 September.

I believe this supports the assumption that Niederbrock died on 17 September.

Now when he is charged with the murders of the other 3, it will be interesting to see what the offense date will be listed as.......

 

[forgottencash]

I saw this post from Emma. Am I missing something or does the time seem to throw off the time line that had her last login on Sept 14? I bleeped out a word. It was on this MySpace.

http://www.myspace.com/kuriuz


Sep 15 2009 4:57 AM

BOYYYYYYYYYY! i miss you
lol
and mannnn move me up on ur TOP
f...... hatin on doll.. lol
luhhhh you boy!

 

[Gene]

I saw this post from Emma. Am I missing something or does the time seem to throw off the time line that had her last login on Sept 14? I bleeped out a word. It was on this MySpace.

http://www.myspace.com/kuriuz


Sep 15 2009 4:57 AM

BOYYYYYYYYYY! i miss you
lol
and mannnn move me up on ur TOP
f...... hatin on doll.. lol
luhhhh you boy!

That is a very good catch! Very interesting. Just note that we have already seen that there seems to be a problem with Emma's Myspace date stamping as I noted a few posts back.

 

[forgottencash]

True, but a post like this also fits into my hypothesis that something may have happened at the concert to spark a fit of jealousy by the BF. I know that "I love you" and "I miss you" doesn't mean much between friends on MySpace, but it just hit a note that she posted it to another young man while the BF was at her house and within a very short time before her death.

 

[Atlantica]

I was under the impression this was an open discussion forum, where differing points of view are presented from all sorts of individual posters with different beliefs, backgrounds, and perspectives.

I don't think the opinions posted here need to be subject to the same exacting standards as a doctoral dissertation would.

If you believe the religious blogger referenced above is "judgmental" or "naive", well then, you are entitled to your belief. But that doesn't make someone else's opinion "invalid" if it's influenced by religious beliefs, or if they don't happen to have the same degree of connection to the people in the case, or the same level of academic experience.
That's part of the whole give-and-take of a discussion forum.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is necessarily engaging in "hyperbole" and "platitudes".

You're as much a part of this forum as anyone else, I would hope. Just because a poster might express a different, even religious point of view, or make a personal judgment about parenting doesn't make his point of view objectionable and completely discountable. I only bring up this issue because I sense a certain animosity (perhaps that's too a strong a word, and if so, I'm sorry) in some of your previous postings towards religious believers and Christians in particular.

Even though I don't agree with you on all your points, I value your opinion, and especially your personal experience as one who is closer to the people involved than many others here.
I think the many readers of this forum can make their own judgments on the different opinions presented, and come to whatever conclusions they wish.

I would hope the moderators distinguish between spirited discussion and explicit personal attacks. I would never be in favor of the latter. If I've offended in any way, I would hope to be warned before being banned. This is a great forum and I've really enjoyed my time here, and have learned a lot from everyone.

I do appreciate your reply. I must point out that backing up what you say is hardly the domain of the dissertation writer, I teach college freshman the same principle. To be taken seriously, those who would hold forth should have something of substance behind it -- whether it's a freshman comp paper, a master's thesis, a letter to the editor, or yes, a forum posting. Platitudes are not only irresponsible, they are hurtful to those who understand a painful subject on a deeper level. I stood before Mark Niederbrock's casket today, I saw his family grieving. And even though most here did not share that sad experience, one would hope that others (especially those who claim to have Christian beliefs, right?) would be imbued with at least compassion, if not wisdom, and avoid platitudes and assumptions.

As for having an ax to grind against religion, sure. Do you not realize that, while Sam would have had issues with or without the influence of religion, still, his obsession with satan and the demonic came directly from the influence of christianity, whether you christians like it or not. Without christianity, satan does not exist. Evil, ok, perhaps. But specificity here -- the concept of hell and the character of satan are christian constructs. Period.

 

[JoeFromLB]

I was wondering if this was the first serious girlfriend the suspect had. Jealousy along with years of immersion in murderous fantasies could have completely unhinged him. After all the rejection he experienced in his life, a girlfriend spurning him could have sent him over the edge.

(playing amateur psychologist here...)

 

[Gene]

True, but a post like this also fits into my hypothesis that something may have happened at the concert to spark a fit of jealousy by the BF. I know that "I love you" and "I miss you" doesn't mean much between friends on MySpace, but it just hit a note that she posted it to another young man while the BF was at her house and within a very short time before her death.

You may be right, but I think that Kuriuz and Emma are long time friends. About a year ago, Mel wrote a post to a singer named Lyssa Cer:

Sep 12, 2008 6:50 AM
HAYYY!!! i havent talked to you in a while =D
i was listening to one of yours n Raz's songs in the shower and i was like "i should leave her a comment"
what the *advertiser censored** have you been up to?!
im comin to see you guys in November, me and RagDoll and Kuriuz n everyone
i cant *advertiser censored**** wait to see you guys again

(expletives altered by me)

 

[forgottencash]

Yeah - my imagination is getting the best of me. It is amazing that through social networking, these kids felt that they really knew each other when some had never met and others had only met once or twice. Emma would have only been 15 in 2008 and you would think from reading the posts that they had all grown up together. I think this faux intimacy is a scary thing - obviously.

 

[Gene]

I was wondering if this was the first serious girlfriend the suspect had. Jealousy along with years of immersion in murderous fantasies could have completely unhinged him. After all the rejection he experienced in his life, a girlfriend spurning him could have sent him over the edge.

(playing amateur psychologist here...)

Absolutely...and don't forget, if things fell apart at the concert (12 September) as his sister said, and he was to fly back on the 19 September, that would mean that he would have had to live with it for one week.

I can not imagine being 20 years old, brokenhearted and living for a week with the girl that dumped me. Ouch! Not a reason to kill someone, but painful nonetheless.

 

[KindraLore]

Emma's mom absolutely DID NOT condone it, as you can see from this link here:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ir6PIEFJ6PHQFXW7IckUo784PJGQD9ATAP901

They struggled with it. They even went to therapy over it. But as discussed earlier in this thread, it is very difficult to deal with once your child is caught up stuff like this. Fellow Poster Atlantica had some very interesting insites on this subject. If you have not read earlier posts in this thread, I suggest that you go back and do so.

Well I did read the thread in its entirety Gene but thank you for telling me how I SHOULD feel. Although I respect Atlantica's insight and OPINION, I have to respectfully disagree with some of it.

To not only allow but to take your CHILD to an event like this, is in fact condoning it in my OPINION. It to me its like having a hardcore drug addict as a child and supplying them with heroin with the excuse that, "If they didn't get it from me, they would get it somewhere."

This is not just some harmless docile punk band many kids phase in and out of. Although the lyrics themselves are despicable, its the lifestyle that is unhealthy. I have spent some time looking at concert pics and the blood and gore is prevalent.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044955

Take the above link picture for example. This is all part of the "concert" and that is real blood. They call it "Communion wounds" and they get it from self inflicted (usually head wounds) and smear the blood all over themselves and each other. I have also seen pics of them vomiting on each other. Their hereos are people like Charles Manson. They are very cult-like and the two girls considered themselves "Apostles". This goes beyond the realm of some crazy kid phase but instead is psychologically dangerous to young minds. I doubt any amount of therapy Em was receiving reversed what this sort of lifestyle was capable of doing.

That said, I do believe the parents did what they THOUGHT was right. In the end, it was their demise.

 

[Atlantica]

I was wondering if this was the first serious girlfriend the suspect had. Jealousy along with years of immersion in murderous fantasies could have completely unhinged him. After all the rejection he experienced in his life, a girlfriend spurning him could have sent him over the edge.

(playing amateur psychologist here...)

I think this is a good point. (and backed up with evidence -- he was bullied in school, became a loner, was a mama's boy, and then mama moved out. Next stop, the girlfriend he saved up all year to go visit, dumps him). From what bits and pieces I've been able to glean from those who would know, the bodies were smashed and cut with a hatchet type weapon. Such damage may come from pure, released rage.

I have another theory about why Mark showed up in F'ville on Thursday. That same day he spoke with the church treasurer about a deposit. Right after that he leaves for farmville, with plans to go on to Richmond, ostensibly for a "meeting." I think that possibly earlier in the week, he and Debra planned to take Sam to Richmond and put him up in an airport hotel until the date of his flight. why not earlier in the week? I think it's connected to the deposit. Could be wrong, but something about the evening trip to Richmond for a meeting doesn't add up. I have heard nothing about what meeting he was going to or that those in attendance of said meeting tried to contact him when he didn't show up.

 

[KindraLore]

I saw this post from Emma. Am I missing something or does the time seem to throw off the time line that had her last login on Sept 14? I bleeped out a word. It was on this MySpace.

http://www.myspace.com/kuriuz


Sep 15 2009 4:57 AM

BOYYYYYYYYYY! i miss you
lol
and mannnn move me up on ur TOP
f...... hatin on doll.. lol
luhhhh you boy!

Emma had a total of 4 myspace accounts, 3 of which were used frequently.

 

[Atlantica]

Well I did read the thread in its entirety Gene but thank you for telling me how I SHOULD feel. Although I respect Atlantica's insight and OPINION, I have to respectfully disagree with some of it.

To not only allow but to take your CHILD to an event like this, is in fact condoning it in my OPINION. It to me its like having a hardcore drug addict as a child and supplying them with heroin with the excuse that, "If they didn't get it from me, they would get it somewhere."

This is not just some harmless docile punk band many kids phase in and out of. Although the lyrics themselves are despicable, its the lifestyle that is unhealthy. I have spent some time looking at concert pics and the blood and gore is prevalent.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044955

Take the above link picture for example. This is all part of the "concert" and that is real blood. They call it "Communion wounds" and they get it from self inflicted (usually head wounds) and smear the blood all over themselves and each other. I have also seen pics of them vomiting on each other. Their hereos are people like Charles Manson. They are very cult-like and the two girls considered themselves "Apostles". This goes beyond the realm of some crazy kid phase but instead is psychologically dangerous to young minds. I doubt any amount of therapy Em was receiving reversed what this sort of lifestyle was capable of doing.

That said, I do believe the parents did what they THOUGHT was right. In the end, it was their demise.

Mine is an informed opinion and the voice of experience. By viewing images and videos of a genre of "music" does that create an informed opinion/voice of experience on: 1. the genre, 2. adolescents, 3. parenthood, 4. the Niederbrock/Kelley family?

Your opinion may be just that, but it isn't backed up by very much. Somehow I thought, and have been trained that evidence matters more than feelings.

The parents did not do what they THOUGHT was right. They, like all families who endure similar trials, did the ONLY thing that could possibly be done. Remember, she was a minor, if she took off with Sam or anyone else when her parents refused to cooperate, THEY are responsible for what happens to her. So, what would YOU do? Sit smugly upon yourself and say, I don't approve and will not help you get to the concert? Newsflash -- they'll LEAVE ANYWAY. Then what, Einstein?

You can't chain them to their beds. They are BEYOND listening or reasoning. At that point, the parent is hostage. Police, courts, won't/can't help. And time, ONLY time brings an end. Most are lucky and survive. But not everyone. And it is nobody's fault. And it has happened (using different cultural vehicles) since societies first formed.

At any rate, no one can interpret the motives of someone who can no longer speak for themselves. To many, it is bad form to try.

 

[longwoodgrad]

I've been meaning to post that maybe the reason her logon was the 14th was if she went on before midnight and mel went on after. That could also explain the comment being on the 15th.

 

[Formynextnovel]

Platitudes and people who have ****uninformed*** opinions are what stand on my last nerve. I realize not everyone lives a life where opinions are not quite good enough (i.e., in the academic world you must back up everything point you want to make, which, personally, I think is a great idea). If one cannot back up one's statements, then doesn't it all descend to gossip? What are platitudes really worth to the rest of you, anyway? And moderator, is it inappropriate to refer to someone's beliefs as naive, when clearly that is what they are??

In this particular case, yes, I can back up what I state -- I am not only fairly close to the case, but I went through an experience strikingly similar to that of the families involved -- thankfully, we all lived to tell the tale. But it is having been in those trenches -- walked in that valley of the shadow of death -- that makes my statements valid, as opposed to hyperbole and platitude, which seems to be in abundance not only here, but elsewhere.

I realize it is human nature to step in and say, well, that's not how I'd handle it, or that could never happen to me. But shouldn't people expressing opinions try a little harder than that? What are the expectations here with regard to rhetorical devices?

In answer to you last question, on the whole, very low. The policy appears to be: type first, think later. Or more often, type, don't think.

I share your frustration. I often feel dialogue via internet (in its various forms: myspace, facebook, aim, chatrooms, forums) is but a rabbit hole of miscommunication and selfdeception; that here, truth is intransmittable. But to settle upon that perception is rather unhelpful. Those whose rhetorical standard demands the arguments and opinions of other posters be thoughtful, structured, and backed up by evidence, are rare, in my experience lurking, but are perhaps the only hope of elevating discourse on the internet. I admit that I, at times, am guilty of dropping my standards when I post--standards I teach to my freshmen in composition classes. But far more often, I just don't post.

A forum ought to be a welcoming place, where ideas are exchanged, views shared and altered. There are just too many people who enter these forums-- not in hope of expanding their own base of knowledge to breed understanding and wisedom within themselves--but rather, with the very easily satisfied urge (on the internet) to reaffirm a current perception in themselves, to amplify it, shout it, make it seem more powerful and true.

This tendency is seen in certain players in this case. Perhaps a warning about the danger of those who seek to think themselves so wise?

 

[gxm]

(respectfully snipped) How they handled this particular situation likely got them killed and so that's why we study it with a little more scrutiny - because of these horrific murders. 4 people lost their lives!

How does one handle a situation that involves a person with the capacity to bludgeon 4 people to death? IMO, the victims are not to blame for not handling the situation properly. The killer is. The blame rests with him and him alone.

 

[gxm]

I saw this post from Emma. Am I missing something or does the time seem to throw off the time line that had her last login on Sept 14? I bleeped out a word. It was on this MySpace.

http://www.myspace.com/kuriuz


Sep 15 2009 4:57 AM

BOYYYYYYYYYY! i miss you
lol
and mannnn move me up on ur TOP
f...... hatin on doll.. lol
luhhhh you boy!

I've been wondering if Sam didn't access their accounts. If they were all using the same computer and cookies weren't disabled then he could log on as the girls after he killed them.